Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 8th, 2023

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Ms. Verschuren, how do you think you got here? I'm putting the question directly to you. How did you get here? What mistakes happened? Is this a witch hunt from somebody else? Is this an axe to grind? I'm giving you the opportunity to share, for the good and welfare of the committee, how your organization got into this position, which is the last position an organization like yours wants to get in.

You're the chair. Ultimately, you are the corporate governance, and responsible for the organization. In your opinion, how did you get here?

[Annette Verschuren]

The 345-page submission started with the Auditor General. That is something we don't have access to, but we have had two separate independent studies showing that there was no wrongdoing and no misconduct, but that there were areas that we need to improve, which we're doing now.

That's how we got here.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Given the nature of the testimony today, I'm going to put it to you one more time: Do you regret not recusing yourself?

[Annette Verschuren]

We took the approach of listening to what our legal adviser told us. There were 140 companies involved in this—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Do you feel like you got good advice, in retrospect?

[Annette Verschuren]

I took the advice from our lawyer.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm giving you the opportunity to have retrospect. You're here now. Your salary has been disclosed. The funding that your organization was....

It was a pre-revenue company for four or five years, funded by an organization that you're chairing, and you're receiving compensation. Do you not regret recusing yourself?

You can say “no”, if you don't.

[Annette Verschuren]

I think I took the proper.... I received legal advice, and I think that was the proper approach.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

Thank you, Ms. Verschuren.

Now we go to the final five-minute rounds—one for Conservatives and one for Liberals.

Mr. Barrett, go ahead for five minutes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Ms. Lawrence, how many projects have been funded by SDTC since 2015?

[Leah Lawrence]

I think we'll have to get that number for you.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Of all the projects that have been funded, only 21 were sampled by RCGT in its preliminary review and nearly $40 million in suspicious payments were found.

In my first exchange with you, Mr. McConnachie, you said that the first time you saw the report from RCGT was in September, but when I jogged your memory with a quote from recordings of you, you agreed that you first saw the findings in May.

You then said that, although you asserted in the records we've heard that on June 7 the minister would be briefed on RCGT by the DM, you don't know if that happened. The minister said he got the brief in September.

I asked if you believe the whistle-blowers. What you said in May was, “We told you we would believe you. Now we have enough evidence to tell you that we really believe you. This means that the government will have actions to take.”

The fund is still open. No one has been fired.

With a yes or no, sir, was ISED of the mind at that time to clear house at SDTC?

[Douglas McConnachie]

No, it was not. That was my personal opinion.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

This was a big deal to ISED. You called it a sponsorship-scandal level giveaway.

Is that correct, sir, yes or no?

[Douglas McConnachie]

It was an offhand remark, sir.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

When discussing next steps on the findings, was there ever a point when you thought the issues at SDTC were so numerous that you would need to open a new office to deal with this issue? Is it yes or no, sir?

[Douglas McConnachie]

I discussed the matter with the deputy minister.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thank you. That's a yes.

I want to offer you a quote. You said, “Like, you don't want a David Johnston special rapporteur or something, where people are like, 'Oh, it's another member of the Liberal elite who is sweeping this under the rug.'”

You also said, “So we're thinking of setting up an office that would be like a new deputy minister, like reporting to the deputy or report to me. We'll see. It depends, I guess, on how the minister wants to run things.”

This is the story: In May, when ISED got the report findings you were gung ho. You were ready to fire the board. You were ready to fire everybody and then open a new office with a director general and a team, and have a spokesperson. You just didn't want it to be someone who is the Prime Minister's neighbour or member of the Trudeau Foundation. You even called it a sponsorship-level giveaway.

Then, in June, after the minister was briefed, the direction and attitude completely changed. You said, “We'll be just amending our current contract to continue the scope of study.”

What a climb-down. I find this incredible, sir.

What did the minister say in June to halt the plan that you laid out?

[Douglas McConnachie]

I had no communication with the minister through this exercise. It's the deputy minister's role to do this.

If I may—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I've heard your response. I don't find it credible based on the recordings that we have from you at the time.

I'd like to recap a few things that have been uncovered as well.

The chair of the board got $220,000 for her company and then her salary from that company was $120,000, but this is not perceived by the chair or by SDTC to be a conflict. The president got $200,000 from a meeting for her best friend. This is unbelievable.

Ms. Lawrence, can you tell the committee how much in bonuses you have received from SDTC since you've started working there?

[Leah Lawrence]

My salary is a matter of public record. It's in our annual report and it's approved by the board of directors.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

What were your bonuses, please?

[Leah Lawrence]

I don't have that information. We'd have to provide it, but my annual—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Will you provide it in writing to the committee?

[Leah Lawrence]

It's a matter of public record. It's in our annual reports.