Evidence of meeting #91 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was project.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
That's correct. We went through an executive search process, and, as people would know, it can take a number of months to find good candidates. The individual started about a month ago.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Okay, so that was a year. Did it take a year? If it was such an important position, why did it take so long to get someone in place?
5:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
It was approved in the fall, as you read. We engaged, and then Christmas and the summer happened, so unfortunately, it did take longer than we expected.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
5:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
Yes.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Mr. McConnachie, thank you for being here.
When the minister was here, he talked about how “The fact-finding report found no clear evidence of wilful misconduct, but did identify a number of instances in which SDTC was not in full compliance with its contribution agreement.”
Would you be able to define “wilful misconduct” and how it's different from inconsistencies and opportunities for improvement?
5:20 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Management Sector, Department of Industry
Mr. Chair, I'm not a lawyer; I'm an accountant. I'm a CFO. It's not my area of expertise, but my layperson's understanding is that wilful misconduct would be considered founded wrongdoing, and there was nothing in RCGT's findings to suggest that there was wilful intent.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Within your role within the department, did you engage lawyers to determine whether this rose to the level of wilful misconduct?
5:20 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Management Sector, Department of Industry
Yes.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
November 8th, 2023 / 5:20 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Management Sector, Department of Industry
That is correct.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Okay. I'm sorry to have put you on the spot. The question should have been about whether the lawyers had determined that.
The minister brought up due process a number of times. What is the danger of making assumptions based on a fact-finding report?
5:20 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Management Sector, Department of Industry
The fact-finding report has very limited scope and very limited methodology, and it was being directed by judgmental samples from the complainants report, so it's certainly not exhaustive.
It's not a detailed forensic audit, and all we received, really, were indications that some of the allegations might have merit, and the intent, as I indicated, was always to determine whether next steps would be required. But that is hardly sufficient grounds to terminate an individual or to take stronger measures—and, again, this is why I feel that the minister responded appropriately in this regard.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. McConnachie, and Ms. Damoff.
Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
5:20 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to ask you a question, Ms. Lawrence. When you hire an ethics advisor who is a lawyer, you generally look for compliance, which is the lowest form of ethics. I see compliance as a bit of a floor, if you will.
What could lead you to seek a little more in the way of ethics? You know, compliance isn't bad, but it's not the end-all be-all either. Why not aim higher?
5:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
Absolutely, Honourable Member. Thank you for the question. That is exactly what the ethics adviser's scope is. It is much broader than the minimum.
What the ethics adviser is there for is to be available. As you stated earlier, Honourable Member, direct conflicts are straightforward. They are under the code of ethics. They can be adjudicated appropriately, and we are very proactive in that regard.
The more challenging things can be where we need to think about perceived conflict or potential conflict, and how those are administered and what you need to do. That is exactly what we're talking about. So the ethics adviser has already been advising on upgrades to our code of ethics in that regard. He's also already been advising on the register that we can put in place to help people understand and be transparent.
As you can imagine, we have a number of streams of people who work with our organization. We have our board of directors, of course. We have employees. We also have consultants, and we have others.
5:20 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
I apologize for interrupting you, but I only have two and a half minutes and I'd like to ask you—
5:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
We are trying to understand how best to approach the higher level with those—
5:20 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
I'd like you to tell me about the best practices that have been put in place by the ethics advisor since he arrived.
5:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
In particular, he has talked about how we can move any concerns or complaints through our processes and procedures to him directly. So, for example, up until today, if there were a complaint against an individual that had gone to an individual other than me, it went to the HR vice-president. Now what's going to happen is that any complaint, regardless of where it comes from, will go to the ethics adviser or to whom it may be against.
The second thing they are looking at is as follows. Right now, it's usually a phone call, an anonymous phone line, that people can use, but now he's saying that there are other ways like email and other appropriate measures, because some people would like different avenues to raise their concerns.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Villemure.
Mr. Green, you have two and a half minutes, please. Go ahead, sir.
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
Ms. Verschuren, I have a problem with the discrepancies between the questions that I asked you and the answers you gave Mr. Cooper. I asked you if, in your official capacity, you acted in a way that would have furthered the interests of your organization. You said that happened 18 months prior—yet the conversation around the COVID funding happened in 2020 and 2021.
Under your own board governance definitions of a conflict of interest, it is said to “arise when a person exercises an official power, duty or function that provides an opportunity to further their own private interests”. Would you not agree that over $200,000 of COVID funding furthers your own private interest?
5:25 p.m.
Chair, Board of Directors, Sustainable Development Technology Canada
The board considered the—
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I asked you a very direct question. I need a very direct answer. For you, do you not consider moving a motion to provide $200,000 worth of funding to an organization of which you are the CEO to constitute at the very least a perceived conflict of interest, if not a very real one?