Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 27th, 2023

[Catherine Luelo]

I feel that you should keep the CIO of Canada, for sure.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Well, I mean, you put it out there. I had to make sure we tied that up, because we have some folks who love austerity and might cut you next time they come through.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green and Ms. Luelo.

Mr. Barrett, for the second round, you have five minutes.

Go ahead.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Ms. Luelo, I want to pick up quickly, if I can, on your exchange with the previous questioner.

You talked about digital being everyone's responsibility, but we've seen examples of a tremendous amount of outsourcing that has happened with respect to the development of digital products in government, to the point where we're not even able to find out how many subcontractors work on a contract. Would you say that's a responsible way for the government to manage IT systems?

[Catherine Luelo]

I can't speak to the procurement approach—that's out of my lane—but I can tell you that there's no world in which we're going to fix this where we're not going to need to work with contractors and professional services firms.

We do not have the capacity inside of government to solve the problem by ourselves. As someone who has played that role in a number of large companies in Canada, I've always relied on a balance of our own people and firms that are well equipped to do the things to deliver digital.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

With respect, I would say there's an absolute absence of balance. We have companies like GC Strategies, which are using limitless numbers of subcontractors to hide who's actually doing the work, to the point where government doesn't know. Everyone points the finger: “Well, that's not my responsibility.” Procurement is not your responsibility, and procurement say that digital is not their responsibility. At the end of the day, Canadians get stuck with a huge bill, and everyone says they're not responsible for having given them the price tag.

Chair, my next question is for the deputy commissioner.

Can the security of Canadians' data be guaranteed if the data is held on servers overseas?

I need a quick answer, if you could, sir.

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

Again, it's a challenging question, in the sense that it depends on encryption levels, actual servers, etc.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

It can't be guaranteed.

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

I don't think any specific system can be guaranteed. I mean, you do all you possibly can, but it is at risk.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Does Beijing use social media to target dissidents in Canada?

Can you provide a quick answer?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

Mr. Chair, there are a variety of means that China and other foreign actors use to target dissidents and conduct foreign interference activities. The use of social media is definitely one of those means.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Did the illegal so-called police stations being run by the dictatorship in Beijing.... Was the information they were using to target the diaspora community in Canada gleaned from social media data harvesting?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

The alleged police stations.... It's still very much an active and ongoing investigation. Therefore, I can't provide any further details on that, as it could compromise the investigation.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Please provide a very quick answer: Do you think it's a good idea, Deputy Commissioner, to have a requirement for app stores like the Apple App Store and the Google Play store to have a responsible adult—a parent—approve the download of all applications for individuals under the age of 16 years old? Do you think that would be a good practice and limit the exploitation and exposure of children?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

I think it would be a progressive dialogue from a policy perspective, yes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thank you.

I cede my remaining time to Mr. Gourde.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

You have a minute and a half.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you.

Given the foreign interference that occurred during the 2019 and 2021 elections, will you have the mandate to intervene if there are cases of obvious or demonstrated foreign interference during the next election period?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

I'll take that one, Mr. Chair.

The RCMP didn't have an investigation under way during the 2019 and 2021 elections. If, in a future election, there are allegations of foreign interference, we can intervene on an ad hoc or on request basis.

We share this mandate with the Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections. The RCMP, as part of its national security program, certainly has a mandate to do that.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I'd like to talk about the time it takes you to intervene, because an election lasts only 35 days, which is very short. However, it's often a matter of hours. If it takes two months, it's too late. Is it possible to do it in two days?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

Are you talking about an investigation?

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I'm talking about the investigation to determine whether it's necessary to intervene. It has to be fast, and it has to be efficient.

[Brigitte Gauvin]

With respect to our actions, we investigate all allegations of criminal activity that we receive. As soon as we receive them, a file is opened and a team is assigned to it.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

What can you do to intervene? Will you disclose that there was interference in such and such a riding and that such and such a message was sent?

It has to be known in real time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Give a short answer, please.