Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 27th, 2023

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Are there any officers assigned to monitor social media platforms?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

No.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Okay. Are any officers specially trained to navigate the platforms at any time to detect illegal activity?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

Through the chair, yes, we certainly have officers who are trained in cybercrime and who can obviously go in and look at different information, but we don't actively use any artificial intelligence. We don't use machine learning. We don't use full-time monitoring.

I guess I'll use the cyberworld as a new neighbourhood. It's not the traditional piece where we actually have a patrol car. Trying to bring that analogy of policing to neighbourhoods, we actively investigate, but we don't actually monitor 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Deputy Commissioner and Mr. Bains.

Mr. Villemure, you have six minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Larkin, thank you very much for coming to see us today.

I always like your answers, which are clear. I'm going to follow up on what you were just talking about.

Could you tell us how you see foreign interference since the advent of social media?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

I'll take that one, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your question, Mr. Villemure.

There has certainly been an increase in foreign interference in recent years. Social media is used as a vehicle for foreign entities to propel their activities.

It certainly is a trend that we're seeing. We assess that there's been a significant increase in the past several years. Definitely, social media are being used.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

What is the impact of the growth in the use of social media on the safety of Canadians?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

That interference is much more difficult to detect. That's why education is important. People need to be aware that they can be monitored by foreign entities through social media. Therefore, it's important that we, the national security community and members of the RCMP in general, have engagement programs with the public, private entities and more vulnerable communities to educate people about the different ways or various mechanisms used by foreign entities to engage in interference activities.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

People don't usually know they're at risk in a lot of cases.

I like the fact that you brought up education. The witnesses who came here felt that people needed to be educated. What I notice is that we have to ask for education.

I know this isn't directly related to your role, but how can we educate the public about a danger that they're unaware of?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

You raise an important point, Mr. Villemure.

Despite that fact, I think we have to continue to educate people. You can't stop educating people based on that premise. It's important to continue that education and to use different ways to do it. This is a problem that affects the government in general. There are many agencies, and we must work together to continue doing this education in order to protect Canadians.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I don't know who I'm directing that question to.

Have you seen an increase in the danger since the advent of AI in general or generative AI, which has been active for about a year now with the arrival of ChatGPT?

Does AI have an impact on foreign interference?

Are the dangers increased or different?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

The presence of artificial intelligence definitely creates big barriers.

It challenges the way we can conduct investigations. I'll give an example. If you're investigating a threat on social media, or if someone is making a threat through an online platform, part of our investigation is to authenticate that video. It's a very important piece of evidence. Artificial intelligence just makes it all that more difficult to be able to do that.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

The RCMP's authority is exercised in a given jurisdiction. A video or an application may have been created in another jurisdiction, where it has no authority.

Is that a problem?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

We're looking at that. However, if a Canadian is threatened or the Canadian public safety or national security of Canada is threatened, that gives us the authority to act.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

It varies according to the purpose of the threat, so to whom or to what it is intended, and not the origin of the threat as such.

[Brigitte Gauvin]

There you go.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay.

What does artificial intelligence bring to foreign interference? What are the examples of increased danger that this has brought?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

I can't give you specific examples of foreign interference caused by artificial intelligence, but I can certainly note that question and send you a more complete answer.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay, I'd love that. That's very good.

I want to come back to education, because it fascinates and worries me.

Should schools teach courses on social media or online conduct?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

Absolutely. That would be a great idea.

To my knowledge, educating young people about the dangers of social media is part of the school curriculum.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay.

What social networks should we use? We talked about TiKToK, but let's widen the spectrum. We're members of Parliament, we communicate among ourselves on so‑called secure platforms. Which ones should we use?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

That's a good question, but I can't answer it precisely.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I'll come back to you, Mr. Deputy Commissioner.

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

I think that question should be addressed to Ms. Luelo, the chief information officer at the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat.