Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 27th, 2023

[Brigitte Gauvin]

We have a variety of ways to warn people. Of course, there are investigative techniques that we can't disclose, since this is sensitive information, but communication with society and the people concerned, among others, is a way of fighting foreign interference.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

Ms. Khalid, go ahead for five minutes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Perhaps I will start with Deputy Commissioner Larkin.

You mentioned earlier that the majority of the work you do with respect to this issue specifically is more investigative and reactive.

Do you think the RCMP should be taking a more proactive approach to the protection of information, especially on social media platforms?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

It's very challenging for us as an organization to react to the amplification and impact of social media. Much of our work is reactive in nature.

Through our NC3, we are very proactive in attempting to work on preventive measures—education through the anti-fraud centre. Our national child exploitation unit does a series of educational pieces around protecting vulnerable individuals. However, we would be greatly assisted by legislation that supports other parameters in protecting vulnerable individuals, and in modernization. One challenge is that we're evolving—it's ongoing—in terms of the impact of social media on our society.

Again, although we would like to transition to this, the reality is that our capacity is limited.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you for that.

To pick up on potential legislation, do you think it would be helpful for offices like yours, the RCMP and other law enforcement to be able to rely on a national registry that has a list of all artificial intelligence applications or the use thereof by social media platforms for you to rely on to know what is out there? I think that might be half the challenge of trying to protect vulnerable communities, if you don't know exactly what kinds of applications or artificial intelligence systems are being used by social media platforms, for example.

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

These are progressive policy discussions and dialogues that should occur, as they would actually inform the greater public and those who use social media. In short, yes, I think we need to consistently evolve as a nation around how we continue to manage social media and the impact on all of our institutions, but also the impact on our daily life. Yes, in short, again, these are modern, progressive policy discussions that should be occurring.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'll ask the chief information officer the same question, if that's okay.

Do you think a national registry that catalogues all artificial intelligence applications and their uses in Canada would be helpful in ensuring the privacy and safety of Canadians?

[Catherine Luelo]

I will defer to the deputy commissioner on that in terms of external, but from an internal perspective, certainly, the guidance we're providing inside government is to ensure we have transparency around where we're using AI and, certainly, from a generative AI perspective, doing the same. We just issued some guidance around that.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Chair, with my remaining time, I would like to move a motion, if that's okay.

I'll read it out:

That, notwithstanding any previously adopted motion of this committee, in relation to the committee’s social media and foreign entity study:

(a) That the committee send invites to any witnesses who have not yet been invited and reinvite, as necessary, witnesses from whom we are still waiting for an answer to appear;

(b) That the committee issue a summons for the following witnesses to appear as soon as possible:

(i) Garrick Tiplady, VP Global Business Group and Country Director, Meta Canada;

(ii) Sabrina Geremia, VP and Country Managing Director, Google Canada;

(iii) Paul Burns, Managing Director, Twitter Canada;

(iv) Shou Zi Chew, CEO, TikTok;

(c) That the committee dedicate as many meetings as possible to completing the witness testimony, and that the committee not hear from any witnesses on studies related to another topic until the committee is satisfied that all witnesses in (a) and (b) have testified; that the committee set a deadline of Tuesday, November 28 at 12:00 p.m. EST to submit new witnesses to the clerk of the committee—

And, very importantly, Chair:

—that all witnesses be given reasonable notice to prepare and attend committee meetings.

I believe a copy of this motion has been sent to the clerk.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Can we suspend, Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We're going to suspend for a minute. I need to consult the clerk.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

The meeting is back in session.

There's been a motion moved by Ms. Khalid. All members of the committee should have that motion. It's in relation to the current study, so it is an admissible motion.

Before we get into debate—and I see your hand, Mr. Kurek—Deputy Commissioner Larkin and Madame Gauvin, I'm going to release you at this point, if you don't mind. I want to say thank you for appearing before the committee today and providing valuable information.

Ms. Luelo, I'm going to release you as well.

It's not as easy for me. You have to click “cancel” or “leave meeting”, but I do appreciate all of you for being here today. Thank you.

[Catherine Luelo]

Thank you for the opportunity.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

You can speak to your motion, Ms. Khalid, and then I'm going to go to Mr. Kurek.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

I hope members have had the opportunity to read the text of the motion. I just want to clarify that the objective of this motion is for us to wrap up this study. We started this in October. It's now December. We haven't really got through the spirit of the initial motion that passed this.

I want to clarify that point (c) doesn't mean that this study will go on forever. If it takes two meetings or three meetings to get through the witnesses we have before us and be able to write an effective report, that's what I'm looking for, Chair. I really want us to move forward with this study as early as possible, so that we can present and table a report in the House and find some concrete solutions to the very important issues we're discussing.

Again, I will reiterate that this does not mean I intend for this study to go on forever.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Khalid.

For the benefit of the committee, I'm going to let you know that we have resources until about 5:45. We've had a few delays. The clerk has advised me of that.

On the motion, Mr. Kurek, you have the floor.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thanks very much, Chair.

I find it interesting. Reading this motion, it shows that a filibuster by any other name.... I've not, in my experience—now having been elected for a number of years and having spent a fair amount of time at this committee and others—seen a motion that says “as many meetings as possible to complete the witness testimony”.

Certainly, I understand there are some topics of discussion that this committee has undertaken that make the government uncomfortable, but I think it's a wide-reaching motion that basically says this may never end. I think it is concerning and certainly indicative of an ulterior motive.

That's not to diminish the importance of the subject at hand, but I think, Chair, we've had the conversation before that we can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

I would, just if I could.... I don't want to give up my time, Chair, but I know this committee has spent some time working out a work plan. I understand that the next two meetings are particularly seized with this, so in terms of information for the committee, I believe it would be relevant...and then I have some further comments, so I'll certainly continue on that.

However, Chair, I'm wondering if you could direct the clerk or the analysts to share the specifics of what the work plan includes, specifically related to the next two meetings, and then I'll have a couple of further comments.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I appreciate the question, Mr. Kurek. You'll still have the floor when we return.

We have witnesses for the 29th. We've been working on witnesses for December 4. We actually have the notice of meeting ready to go out. They would be Mr. Caraway, who, unfortunately, had some technical issues; Dr. Emily Laidlaw, associate professor and Canada research chair in cybersecurity law from the University of Calgary; Mr. Matt Malone is scheduled to appear; and from the Dais, we have Sam Andrey, managing director, and Joe Masoodi, senior policy analyst.

I'm going to refer to the clerk to speak specifically about the meeting on December 4.

Do we have witnesses at this point for December 4, Madam Clerk, or are we still waiting to hear?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Nancy Vohl]

I still have to send invitations and confirmations. Also, I would like direction from the committee—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay. Of course, on December 11, we've agreed through our work plan—perhaps the analyst can expand on this—to have the RCMP commissioner here in relation to the motion that was passed by the committee as it relates to SNC-Lavalin.

Is there anything you would like to add?

[Alexandra Savoie, Committee Researcher]

I was just going to say, as Nancy just said, we're looking for instructions, whether it's through Ms. Khalid's motion...because, technically, as you've noticed, some witnesses have declined the invitation. However, in terms of the work plan that was circulated, it is at the end of the work plan. That's why we need instructions as to whom we invite next.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

That's the answer to that question, Mr. Kurek.

You still have the floor. Go ahead.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

It's very telling, I think—and this committee is seized with what is an important discussion surrounding social media and its impact on Canada and Canadian young people—that passing the motion as it's written, Mr. Chair, would effectively override the work plan that has, in its future, the commissioner of the RCMP coming to appear regarding SNC-Lavalin. I think it's pretty clear that there is an ulterior motive.

As well, I would note that, with the witnesses to appear, they have Meta—Facebook. There's a vice-president for Google and a managing director of Twitter Canada. However, then they ask the CEO of TikTok. For consistency, to ask executive members of those organizations to come, I think, would also be very reasonable when having this discussion.

That point aside, Mr. Chair, I would move an amendment to Ms. Khalid's motion. It would simply be that (c) be deleted from the motion.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Do you mean (c) in its entirety?

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Yes.