Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 27th, 2023

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Doctor, what would you say, with respect to the protection of minors and the use of social media, to the idea of all the various applications having a requirement for the companies that operate the app stores, like the Apple App Store and the Google Play store, to require an adult—ideally a parent, but an adult—approve all downloads for individuals under the age of 16 years old?

[Dr. Anatoliy Gruzd]

I think it's good parenting advice. In my work, I focus more on the adult population—18 plus—so I probably wouldn't be able to get into more detail on that.

My only concern is that the supervising adult might not be able to figure out whether something is malicious or not. I think there is a responsibility for those stores you're referring to to vet the platforms they host.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Yes. I think that dual obligation, of course, is for the platforming of the application by the app stores, but also for the responsible adult in a minor's life to be required to approve.

I appreciate your saying it's good parenting advice. I think it's potentially also good public policy, and that's what I'm looking to find out. With how pervasive the messages are, especially when they're sponsored by foreign state actors, malicious actors or predators, I think our children are at significant risk with the current set-up and their ability to access this information, so thanks for your feedback on that.

Thanks, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

Sir, did you have something you wanted to say in 20 seconds?

[Dr. Anatoliy Gruzd]

Yes. It's just about parents. We're assuming they're knowledgeable adults, so it goes to my point about not putting too much emphasis on individual responsibilities. Platforms have to play their part. Kids may have second devices.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We'll go to Madame Fortier for two and a half minutes.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here today.

At our committee on October 18, we had David Lieber appear before us. He is the head of privacy public policy for the Americas, and he stated, “Canadian data is stored in the United States, in Singapore and in Malaysia. That's where the servers are located.”

Does this raise any flags for you? Can you comment on that statement in general?

[Dr. Anatoliy Gruzd]

First of all, I don't have the capacity to independently verify where the data is, in fact, stored, so that's a public statement. Knowing how interconnected online systems are, we would want to see some kind of audit of where it actually goes.

We talked about AI, and I'll explain why that's relevant. A lot of social media platforms and other online services, in order to innovate, will incorporate APIs—essentially, access to artificial intelligence applications—to improve recommendations. Essentially, there may be cases where the data is leaving servers, which is why it's sometimes hard to be definitive. Platforms like TikTok and others have partners, and they share data to enhance each other's services.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Because there's about a minute left, maybe you can finish your answer from the other questions you received. I know you might want to share other thoughts with us before we close.

[Dr. Anatoliy Gruzd]

I think we had good coverage. I think it's just to emphasize that when we talk about foreign interference, it comes in different shapes and forms.

From my perspective, it's the impact of influencers online and politicians who have platforms. They are often the largest disinformation spreaders, but it just happens sometimes that it may align with state interests of another country.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Madame Fortier.

Dr. Gruzd, thank you so much for appearing before our committee. I know you carried the oak today. You were the only witness. Unfortunately, we had to push a witness off because of technology issues, but I appreciate your being there by yourself today and answering the questions of the committee.

We are going to suspend for just a couple of minutes. We're going to set up for the next panel.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I call the meeting back to order. Welcome back, everyone.

I'd like to now welcome our witnesses for the second part of our meeting today.

First of all, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Deputy Commissioner Bryan Larkin, who is responsible for specialized policing services. Welcome, Deputy Commissioner.

We also have Brigitte Gauvin, who's the acting assistant commissioner of federal policing, national security.

Also with us today, from the Treasury Board Secretariat, is Catherine Luelo, deputy minister and chief information officer.

I understand, Deputy Commissioner Larkin, that you have an opening statement.

I'm just confirming, Ms. Luelo, that you do not have an opening statement. Is that correct?

[Catherine Luelo, Deputy Minister and Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat]

I have a few comments I'd like to make, but I'll keep them brief.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

That's fine. I'll come to you after Mr. Larkin.

Go ahead, sir. You have five minutes to address the committee.

[Deputy Commissioner Bryan Larkin, Deputy Commissioner, Specialized Policing Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you so much.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair.

Hello, honourable chair and members of the committee.

My name is Bryan Larkin. I am the deputy commissioner of specialized policing. I'm joined by Assistant Commissioner Brigitte Gauvin.

First, I would like to thank all of you for the opportunity to discuss the issue. The exploitation of the personal data of Canadians by foreign actors and the commission of crimes in the digital space are of the highest priority and among the key mandates of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

Foreign interference affects every aspect of our lives, from the foundations of our democracy and our economic prosperity to the critical infrastructure essential to our well-being and the fundamental rights and values that define us as a society. It is a multi-layered threat, with foreign actors seeking to advance their objectives in a myriad of ways, including through state-backed harassment and intimidation of individuals and communities across Canada.

Make no mistake: Foreign governments are leveraging data harvested through popular social media platforms to profile individuals and conduct misinformation and disinformation campaigns within Canada. Among other threat activities, online data is also being used to identify and repress political dissidents who seek refuge in Canada.

Foreign interference actors are also making nefarious linkages to criminal organizations, which facilitate the commission of and profit from illicit activities such as online fraud, cyber-espionage, child exploitation and intellectual property theft.

With these considerations in mind, today we will briefly cover the RCMP's role in contributing to the protection of all Canadians from foreign interference in the cyber realm.

As Canada's national police force, the RCMP is mandated to investigate criminal activity related to serious and organized crime and national security, which includes instances of foreign interference conducted through online means. Through our national cybercrime coordination centre, the RCMP works with all law enforcement and other partners, including the Canadian anti-fraud centre, to help reduce the threat, impact and victimization from cybercrime within Canada.

In 2022, more than 30,000 reports of cyber-enabled fraud and scams had a 35% nexus to social media platforms. We also work closely with police services across our country, as they are often the first law enforcement entities to learn about state-backed cybercriminal activities targeted at Canadians.

While the RCMP is investigating cyber-threats and actors, Canadians also need to recognize the dangers as well as the impact of online activity. In particular, it's critical for all of us to understand that everything we share is collected and stored on servers. These are often located outside our national borders, where privacy rights may not have the same meaning as they do here. In essence, we leave a digital footprint across the nation.

In some foreign jurisdictions, national security laws oblige social media companies to share this personal data collected from international users with local governments. This data is then used to harass, coerce and/or threaten dissenting voices, political leadership and our diverse communities abroad, and/or to facilitate cybercriminal activities.

Youth are particularly vulnerable. They're vulnerable to cybercrime. They tend to trust in the digital environment without fully grasping the risk associated with the digital platforms. Their extensive use of social media platforms coupled with the tendency to overshare personal information makes them particularly attractive targets for cybercriminals.

Our national youth services are engaged and educate young people about online safety through collaboration with school resource officers and various organizations. Additionally, the RCMP is committed to and continues to work with our diverse communities and newcomers to provide them with information, including safety tips and how to recognize fraudulent calls and phishing scams.

NC3, which is our cyber coordination centre, and our anti-fraud centre are also engaged in the Government of Canada's “Get Cyber Safe” public awareness campaign. This aims to inform all Canadians, including youth, about cyber-threats and prevention.

The RCMP also produces operational bulletins and reporting tools for frontline police officers, strategic partners and the public, with the goal of increasing reporting on federal crimes and engaging with culturally diverse communities.

The protection of Canada and the safety of its citizens and residents are paramount to the RCMP. It will be important for all aspects of society to work together to protect against foreign interference in this space.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Deputy Commissioner Larkin.

Ms. Luelo, go ahead for up to five minutes, please.

[Catherine Luelo]

Thank you very much. I intend to take only a couple of minutes. I want to leave time for committee members to ask any questions they may have about this important topic.

Thank you for having me today virtually.

I think the deputy commissioner outlined a number of things very well. I will take just a minute to situate my role.

As the chief information officer of Canada, I am accountable for ensuring that we have clear rules and guidelines around the usage of Government of Canada devices. That's the purview through which I made the decision on TikTok.

When we're looking at making decisions around what acceptable use is in government devices, we balance a whole bunch of things, including things like privacy, what is acceptable use in business environments, and cost. All of these things go into deciding what we allow on devices.

Maybe just as a last comment, it would be my best advice that we continue to tighten our environment in terms of the use of Government of Canada devices. We have a fairly open environment, in which about 90% of Government of Canada devices allow downloads of whatever the user would like.

We have partitioned devices, some for business and some for personal use on one common device. From my experience in the private sector, that's not usual, so it would again be my advice, and the direction in which I've been moving the organization, to further tighten that environment so that we balance out the use of devices for government business and government business alone. In doing so, we are going to have a knock-on effect that I think is going to better protect the privacy of our information.

I look forward to your questions, and I will pass it back to you to allow as much time as possible for that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We appreciate that, Ms. Luelo.

We're going to start with our first six-minute round, and I have Mr. Brock for six minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for your attendance today.

With time permitting, I will circle back to the focus of this meeting, that being social media and foreign interference, but there is another pressing issue that Canadians want answers to.

Deputy Commissioner Larkin, all my questions will be directed towards you.

You'll agree that there are basic legal tenets under criminal law; namely, that ignorance of the law is no excuse and that no Canadian is above the law. That includes all members of Parliament and the Prime Minister himself.

Would you agree with that?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

That's the foundation of democracy and the democratic institutions that we provide support to in enforcing the Criminal Code of Canada and other jurisdictional laws, such as provincial and/or municipal.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

Notwithstanding that no sitting prime minister has ever been criminally charged with an offence under the Criminal Code of Canada and/or convicted of a criminal offence, if the RCMP service had reasonable and probable grounds to believe that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau had committed a criminal offence, the service would charge accordingly. Isn't that correct?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Chair, on a point of order, I understand that we have guests today to discuss a topic that we have in front of us. I think we should stay on topic and not go off topic. I would appreciate it, Mr. Chair, if we could go on with the topic of the study we have right now.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Brock is an experienced litigator, and he did say at the outset that he was going to get to where he needs to go, so I want to give him some latitude.

Generally, as you know, I give each member their time to discuss, generally, what they want. If it brings us to a point where we end up—which I expect is where Mr. Brock is going with this—then he has the floor, and he can ask whatever questions he wants.

Mr. Brock, I stopped your time. I didn't stop it right away, but I'll give you a 10-second head start, and then I'll restart your time.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Chair, can I challenge you on this?

We are talking about the relevance of the topic, and I believe that we should—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

The issue with relevance, Madame Fortier, is that it's somewhat subjective.

Mr. Brock—