Information & Ethics Committee on Jan. 30th, 2024

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Did we get it?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

It was sent to you by email, Mr. Berthold.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

I'm going to ask whether we have unanimous consent, and because the motion has been moved, it would be open for debate.

Let me seek unanimous consent first of all. Do we have unanimous consent to adopt the motion?

I'm not seeing consent.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

You have consent, Mr. Chair. I just want to add a little bit to it. That's all.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

It's open for debate at this point, so I'm going to open the floor for debate on Mr. Green's motion.

Again, sir, I'm going to ask that you stay. Perhaps we'll dispose of this quickly. If not, then I am going to dismiss you. However, if you could just hold on for a second, that would be great.

Ms. Khalid, you have the floor. Go ahead on the motion.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I agree 100% with Mr. Green. I think this is an excellent motion for us to present.

My only concern is that when we prepare this letter, all members of this committee will be able to review it and provide amendments or edits to that letter before it is sent over to PROC. This would be just to ensure that everyone's viewpoints, including those of the NDP and the Bloc, are taken into consideration with this letter.

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

The request from Ms. Khalid is to review and edit the substance of the letter if this motion is adopted.

Go ahead, Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Mr. Chair, my initial concern is that there are going to be costs or changes added to members' budgets for this. We wouldn't want to give the idea that we're just looking to have an increase to members' budgets and that there's a further requirement for an increase to the consolidated revenue fund.

I'd look for some precision from the mover for this to be included in the current budget envelope if that's the intent. If so, that should be reflected in the wording of our recommendation to the Board of Internal Economy and to PROC.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I appreciate the point, Mr. Barrett. The way I'm reading the motion now is that it's asking the committee to send a letter with consideration for these changes to be made by both the procedure and house affairs committee and the Board of Internal Economy, so I don't see any financial obligations associated with this motion at this point. It would be up to both PROC and the board to determine if they do decide at some point, whenever that point may be, to accept this committee's recommendation based on what Mr. Green has proposed.

I'm going to ask Mr. Green if that is an accurate assessment of what his motion proposes today.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That is absolutely accurate, Mr. Chair. This is for their consideration.

Obviously, this is a MOB situation, because travel credits come out of the central fund, but this would have to be duly studied and reported on.

What I'm asking this committee to do, Mr. Chair, is to move beyond the political ambulance chasing and start to provide a political legislative remedy to close the gaps on this situation. I'm not interested in coming back under another government and going back through the list of sponsored travel dating back to pre-Confederation. What I want to do is hopefully use the time here judiciously to ensure that we're actually providing legislative responses. We've heard them today. They've said that this is up to us, so let's do that now.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

Mr. Barrett is next.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Yes, that's fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay, we have a motion on the floor that we are now going to vote on.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I just have another question.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm sorry. I honestly didn't see you. Go ahead, Ms. Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

I support this motion. In fact, you and I have spoken about this, Mr. Green.

My only question is this: Should there be some oversight on these international trips? Our MOBs already allow us to have two trips a year to either Washington or New York City. Most MPs don't even take advantage of that, so it's not like every MP is suddenly going to be travelling internationally. Our trips are reported publicly, so it would be very public and accountable. With the way it's worded right now, I guess I just wonder if there's an ability to have some kind of oversight on the international travel. Maybe we don't need it in this motion, but I am very supportive of what you're proposing.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

May I respond?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Please respond to Ms. Damoff, Mr. Green.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

This is a very simple motion that refers this matter to PROC and the Board of Internal Economy for legislative consideration. I'm not even suggesting that we have to be prescriptive, which is why I'm not interested in getting into unanimous consent around wordsmithing. I think if we send this as it is, we have identified the issue that has happened at this committee.

I'm putting this marker down because it's plausible that within the next 12 months, something like this can happen again. We need to do what we're tasked to do as a committee, which is review the issue. We've heard quite clearly in testimony where our current Conflict of Interest Act lies and where the sponsored travel gaps are. They are significant. On the sponsored travel issue, this is it.

We need to come back to the gifts, for sure, and have a clear position. I do believe that ethics potentially could be non-partisan. Potentially, we can find common ground to say that this needs to end. That's what I'm proposing here today.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

We've had some discussion on this and some clarification on exactly what the motion proposes. Rather than a recorded vote, I'm going to go back to seeking consensus on this with the caveat, as Ms. Khalid pointed out, that committee members will be able to review and edit the letter if need be.

Do we have consensus on this?

I'm seeing nods from Mr. Barrett, Mr. Villemure, Mr. Green and Madame Fortier.

(Motion agreed to)

Thank you, Mr. Green.

All right, I am going to go to—

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

Can I answer the question that Mr. Green posed to me?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We didn't forget about you, sir.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I still have three minutes.