Evidence of meeting #2 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commissioner.
A video is available from Parliament.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I've tried to answer that.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
—independent mechanisms that your office has to ensure that it is in fact being applied properly?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It's because their interest is the same as the Prime Minister's. They don't want to see the Prime Minister, whom they serve, run afoul of conflict of interest. That would cause both political and legal problems. They are there to make sure that he complies with the law. It is their duty. They have been assigned that duty. Surely they're going to exercise it in such a way that there does not appear to be or that there does not arise a conflict of interest. That's their job.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Your answer is that the effectiveness of the screen rests on the Prime Minister's chief of staff and the Clerk of the Privy Council, right?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I rely on the integrity of the senior people in government acting in accordance with the law, because it's in their interest and in the interest of the Prime Minister they serve.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
So the answer, sir, is that there are no independent mechanisms in place, correct?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No, not at all. Don't forget that it's not their decision. Each one of them has a whole body of people working under them. They have all been instructed. We have given them lessons on how to do it, etc. When in doubt, they will consult with us. They are very keen that nobody can raise a conflict of interest. That's their job.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Well, all I can say is that with no reporting, no transparency measures, and no checks and balances, we're just left to take the word of Mark Carney and his two top advisers. I would say that this falls short.
With respect to the ethics screen, Mr. Carney may participate in a discussion or a decision on a matter of general application or that affects interests of companies as a broad class of persons, unless those interests are disproportionate to other members.
Now, “disproportionate” isn't defined in the screen. What constitutes a disproportionate interest?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
First of all, what's a class? A class is a whole bunch of persons who are affected and have one thing in common.
A perfect example would be farmers. That's a class. You can have a subclass of wheat farmers, etc. If one of them is disproportionate—wheat farmers are probably a bad example—and one member of the class owns 60% or so, the others will have less, as they have the other 40%. Clearly, that person who has a 60% interest in that group of companies is disproportionate, and the screen would apply.
I can't give you a specific, generic position because it depends on who we're dealing with, what the industry is and how widely or closely it is held.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
That's it, Mr. Cooper.
Thank you, Commissioner.
We are now going to Ms. Church. Go ahead, please, for five minutes.
Liberal
Leslie Church Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Colleagues, welcome back.
Mr. Commissioner, I thank you and your office for your guidance and vigilance at all times. There are just a few questions from me.
First of all, when were the provisions that pertain to establishing a blind trust enacted? Was it at the outset of the act?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
As I said, section 29 basically says that the commissioner can determine “appropriate measures” for public office holders. One that we came up with is this screen.
My colleague wants to add something.
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Section 27, which contains the divestment provisions, was also implemented at the outset of the act in 2007.
Liberal
Leslie Church Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
It was in 2007. Thanks very much.
Commissioner, do you have a sense of how many blind trusts have been established, annually, currently or over time?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I don't have the number with me, but one of my colleagues will have it. It's not very many.
Melanie Rushworth Director, Communications, Outreach and Planning, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I believe there are about 22, on average, established in a year.
Liberal
Leslie Church Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
Would you be able to generalize the types of assets you tend to see inside these trusts?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Usually, what the office-holder puts in the trust is everything they are not allowed to have. It's mostly interests in companies. They can put in bonds, financial instruments and stuff like that. They put them in the blind trust and the title is given to trustees, but of course, they are not blind to what they have put in there. Therefore, in order to avoid that—people being able to put things in the blind trust and then take advantage by taking measures that increase their value—we have created this screen.
It's not very often that there's a situation, as my colleague pointed out.
Liberal
Leslie Church Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
In your opening remarks, you mentioned how one of your objectives was to not discourage people from a variety of backgrounds from entering public office—particularly those with private sector experience. Would you agree that the profiles of the blind trust holders typically have some degree of private sector experience?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes, absolutely.
Liberal
Leslie Church Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
Mr. Commissioner, could you describe the reporting requirements required of public office holders under the act?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Why don't you walk us through it, Lyne?
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Essentially, when a reporting public office holder is appointed, they are provided a confidential report that they need to disclose. In it, they have to disclose information on their assets, liabilities, outside activities and corporations, and any other information that the commissioner may use to provide guidance. This might be about family members who have interests in or dealings with the federal government or friends who have dealings with the federal government. All of that is provided in the confidential report. At that point in time, the office and adviser in the office will review the disclosure and establish which requirements are required.
In the case of assets or assets that are deemed controlled, a divestment is required. In some cases, a reporting public office holder must also step down from private companies in which they are a director, president or chair. All of these measures are reviewed with the reporting public office holder, and they have a period of time to comply with them.
Essentially, there's a lot of information that's very similar to what is disclosed by members of Parliament, but there are more concrete measures that are required for them to comply with the act.