Evidence of meeting #40 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was requests.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
We've just heard from Ms. Maynard about the challenge of maintaining both independence and public confidence, particularly when dealing with high-profile or publicly sensitive cases. I'd like to offer you the opportunity to speak to that.
Do you experience similar challenges, given the nature of your role?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
She is in a different position in terms of the budget, as she explained to you. She would love to be in a situation like ours and the Parliamentary Budget Officer's. They are not part of the departmental budget, but because they are agents of Parliament, they get money directly from Parliament. I can understand her aspirations, and I fully support them.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Towards the tail end of Ms. Church's testimony, you said something that we would all do well to bear in mind. You said the system is not perfect, but by and large, it works. That tone—perhaps not of positivity but of confidence in our system—is reassuring. We often highlight the bad, because, yes, improvements are always of value, but scarcely do we speak of the good in most contexts.
What is it about our system that you find is so effective? Monsieur Bonin asked a similar question earlier, but I feel there was more room to expand and I'd like to give you that opportunity.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
There are two things, which I've mentioned before.
First, it tries to make a balance between avoiding conflicts of interest and, at the same time, attracting and allowing the best people to work in the public service and contribute.
Second, we state the needs at the front. It's preventative. Before you can take your job, you have to come to me and tell us exactly what the possible things are, and we'll try to find a solution. It's not that you suddenly find yourself in a situation and ask, “What do I do now?”, and you have to publicly make an excuse. No, it's preplanned. We try to see it and try to avoid it.
Obviously, it's not perfect. Nobody can foresee what's coming, but these are two factors of the law that are a source of its success—the balance and the preplanning.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Another piece we discussed with Ms. Maynard was her office's efforts to increase efficiencies, though they are exempt from the expenditure review.
I know that your office, as an agent of Parliament, is in a similar position. Has your office undergone a similar process?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We are exempt from it, but we are trying to be as efficient as possible. We are especially trying to use modern means. For instance, at the request of the House, we have established a training course online so that, rather than you wasting your time and us employing lots of people to teach you and make you aware of what a conflict is, there's an online training course that goes through all the permutations, etc. This has meant that for the people who were involved in that beforehand, the number has been reduced, and so on.
It's the same thing for.... We have lots of forms that you have to fill out. Unfortunately, as you know, it's a paper-heavy process. We have revised the forms. I'm waiting for the House committee on process to approve the forms so that it's easier for you. In effect, from one year to the next, you can just state that it's the same as last year except for section 5, for example, rather than having to refill everything again.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Commissioner.
Thank you, Mr. Al Soud.
We have time for two four-minute rounds. I'm going to go to Mr. Barrett first and then Ms. Chagger after that.
Mr. Barrett, go ahead.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON
You've said that the act should include apparent conflicts. Is it fair to say that the law, in its current form, is not sufficient to protect public confidence in senior public office holders?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I think that's overstating it. I think the idea of public confidence could be increased. I never said that there's no public confidence in senior officials.
For the man on the street, the appearance of conflicts of interest and real conflicts of interest are very difficult to distinguish. Very often, there's an appearance, but there's no actual pecuniary benefit. There's no conflict of interest, but people will ask, “Why aren't you doing anything about it?”
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON
To be clear, I didn't assert that there wasn't confidence. What I asked was if it was sufficient to protect public confidence. In its current form, is it insufficient in its scope to protect public confidence?
When a minister or a prime minister has large and complex financial interests, does the current framework put too much weight on internal screens, recusals and trust arrangements rather than on big, bright lines and clear-to-understand rules for members of the public? You mentioned someone on the street not being sure and saying, “This doesn't pass the sniff test to me. Why aren't you doing something about it?” The “you” could be elected members or it could be officers of Parliament, but why isn't someone doing something about this?
Would that not be better as an aspiration for us in our development and modifications of the act?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Public confidence is hard to define in terms of what creates it and how to strengthen it. There's no magic bullet. There's no way of addressing it.
Clearly, it isn't as great as it should be or we would want it to be, but exactly what the measures are to do it and how to do it, I'm not quite sure.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON
Let me put a precision on that. I have one minute left, and I'll give the time to you.
What is the single most important amendment that Parliament could pass to make a positive change for public confidence in the system and in executives?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
That's exactly what I just said before. There's no silver bullet. It's a whole bunch of little things, etc., that you can do to create.... I don't think there's one—
Conservative
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Well, I....
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON
I'm genuinely looking to give us a bit more direction. We had a minority report. We had a majority report. We have the expert on the application of the act and code in front of us. That's the spirit of my question.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Clearly, we're dealing with the appearance of conflicts of interest. A good definition of what an appearance of conflict is and how it would be administered would help.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON
I appreciate that. Thank you.
Conservative
Liberal
Bardish Chagger Liberal Waterloo, ON
Thanks, Chair.
Thank you, Commissioner. It's been nice to hear this exchange and how you take on your responsibilities in the role. In past experiences, you have definitely demonstrated the regard and respect you hold for this office—a very important office. Thank you for your service.
As you've heard tonight and in the past, the committee recently had the Prime Minister's conflict of interest screen brought to its attention.
Could you please speak to your communications with the Prime Minister's Office, particularly its two administrators, Michael Sabia and Marc-André Blanchard? Give us a sense of how often your offices might communicate with each other.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
As you know, each person subject to it has a person in my office designated as his or her special contact. In that way, we have also designated somebody for the two people you're talking about, Mr. Sabia and Mr. Blanchard. They contact him if they have a problem and he gives them advice. As you know, it's all confidential. It's up to them whether they want to disclose it or not.
They do talk to him. Mr. Sabia, I think, has offered to give you periodic reports on this contact. As I said, the way the whole system is set up means that we are there to give advice. We don't disclose. They disclose whether they talk to us and what we told them.
Liberal
Bardish Chagger Liberal Waterloo, ON
There's the constant challenge of public perception. There are these doubts constantly being placed in people's minds. I hear this from constituents.
Can constituents have confidence that you and your team take your job seriously? If you hear something that needs to be looked at, would you do your job and fulfill it, ensuring that there is no conflict?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I certainly hope we do that.
The beauty of the system is that if you have a problem, you can, in complete confidence, come to me. I will not disclose it to anybody. I cannot be forced to disclose. On the other hand, my job and my aim are to make sure your conflict goes away—that you deal with it, and deal with it in an honourable way, etc. That's how it works for everybody, including the Prime Minister.
Obviously, when somebody has a larger responsibility and as many assets as Mr. Carney and other people do, it gets more complicated. It requires more work from us.
Liberal
Bardish Chagger Liberal Waterloo, ON
That's interesting, because I understand former prime minister Stephen Harper's chief of staff Guy Giorno stated that the commissioner would know what assets exist and where there is a screen. They would know all assets in blind trusts and what is not in blind trusts. The commissioner's office would know that.