Evidence of meeting #40 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was requests.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
In your example, would that person be appointed by an order in council?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
They would be appointed by an order in council. In other words, would they be appointed by the government, by the cabinet?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
In the case you describe, that person would be working for the Office, but would not be subject to the Conflict of Interest Act.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The person is not appointed.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
They are employed by the Office, but they are not appointed by an order in council. You're talking about major projects. Those people are governor in council appointees. They are required to report. The people hired by the Office, on the other hand, are not subject to our act.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Perhaps you can return to that in the next round, Mr. Bonin.
The first round is now over, and we're going to start the second round.
Mr. Hardy, you now have the floor for five minutes.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
Thank you for being with us today, Commissioner.
You talked about the highest ethical standards, transparent processes and trust in our institutions. There can be no greater mission, honestly. It has to be done well and it has to be done quickly.
I want to understand the process. Today we're talking about your budgets. Your office's budget processes have to be approved by the Speaker of the House, who is currently a Liberal, but we agree on the fact that it depends on the government, and the President of the Treasury Board. Is that correct?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
Do you feel independent when you have to have your budgets approved by people you could investigate at some point? How can you be completely independent? I firmly believe that you should be, but you report directly to people who can have a financial influence on your ability to investigate.
Isn't there a conflict in the very creation of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Somebody has to approve my budget. As was done in the case of judges, a committee could be created to decide what our budget should be and make recommendations to the government.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
It would be a good idea to be completely independent.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
You think there is a conflict. The process is as follows. We make a presentation to the Speaker with justifications as to what is needed. The Speaker then forwards that to the President of the Treasury Board, and it's approved. It's almost always a very short and specific conversation. We have to indicate what is needed and provide proof.
Ms. Roy can describe the process.
Conservative
Anne-Marie Roy Manager, Financial Services, Corporate Management, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
What I can add is that we submit our budget to the Speaker of the House, but it's for his consideration. It's not an approval that we get, strictly speaking. Our budget is then forwarded to Treasury Board, and then it's really before you, before the committee, that we are asked about our budget.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
You go before the committee. We just finished a major study, which included apparent and real conflicts of interest. We were told at a press conference that 20 of the committee's 23 recommendations, if not all of them, would be rejected by the Liberals, who now have a majority.
I keep coming back to the same issue. If we conduct investigations here or if we ask questions of witnesses, who make suggestions, and we prepare a report that is completely rejected because we don't control a committee that is intended to provide government oversight, how can that be ethical? We're going around in circles. We bring in witnesses, we hear their testimony, we make recommendations, but it's the government that's in power that ultimately rejects everything we say.
What can you do ultimately, particularly in terms of including the appearance of conflicts of interest in the act?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
That's the system we have. It's the act. If you want to change it—
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
Changing laws means facing up to those who make them.
There's also the sovereign debt fund that was just announced. It's a $25 billion debt fund. It's a new gimmick from the government that says it's going to invest in energy, infrastructure, mines, technology and net zero. It's the new thing. The fund will be headed up by a chief executive officer and an independent board of directors. Nothing was said or disclosed.
You talked about the importance of the appearance of conflict of interest. Looking at the financial interests in this fund, we can see that it is perfectly aligned with Brookfield's interests. We know that the prime minister is connected to that fund. We know his assets are in a blind trust, but in any case, he is connected to the performance of his fund. He has a strong connection to the Net-Zero Banking Alliance. Is that an apparent conflict of interest? Will this new sovereign debt fund include an ethical wall? Will mechanisms be put in place? Every time a new bureaucracy is created, do you have to reanalyze everything to see if you're going to step in to create an ethical wall?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The screens you're talking about are there for the second step.
First, if there is a conflict of interest, the person must recuse themselves.
Second, to prevent this from happening often, there is a process in place. We apply the screens. The matter is not presented to the person with decision-making authority, but to someone else.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
For example, in the case of the Prime Minister, if the screen is applied, he doesn't see it because another minister will make the decision. This is a practical way to avoid a large number of recusals and so on.
