Evidence of meeting #44 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was threshold.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Ms. Santini and Mr. Al Soud.
Mr. Fortin, I only have two and a half minutes to give you.
You have the floor.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Mr. Chair, I didn't have the means to buy five minutes. I'll stick to my two and a half minutes. Thank you.
I'd like to hear the witnesses' opinions on the issue of appeals to the general public. In her recommendation 9, the commissioner proposes that each appeal to the general public be disclosed. We're talking here about organizations that generally ask people to intervene with such and such a minister.
What do you think about this issue?
Legal Counsel, Gowling WLG, As an Individual
Naturally, it's a legitimate issue that falls within the scope of lobbying. It's another communication tactic, in a way.
Legal Counsel, Gowling WLG, As an Individual
It's legitimate. Once again, how do we define that, what will be the guidelines and all that? It should be subject to a public consultation and not just a directive from the commissioner stating what the situation is.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
You're referring to a public consultation. I imagine you mean that it would be a consultation conducted broadly with lobbying organizations.
Which consultation are you talking about?
Legal Counsel, Gowling WLG, As an Individual
I'm talking about public consultation, since these are changes proposed in the legislative framework. In this case, in reviewing the legislative framework, there's an opportunity to have public consultations on the subject, among other things. There's also the Canada Gazette and things like that.
Bloc
Legal Counsel, Gowling WLG, As an Individual
There are also other parliamentary committees, for example.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
You seem to have sufficient expertise to advise us well.
Ms. Santini, I have the same question for you: What do you think about public appeals?
Director, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
They are already public. It's generally already available. Whether it's in the Canada Gazette or elsewhere, the comments are published. Why add to the paperwork if it's allowed?
Was that the question?
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
We're talking about cases where an organization appeals to the public and asks them to write to a specific minister about a particular issue. Should that be considered a lobbying activity?
Director, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
What constitutes grassroots lobbying needs to be clearly defined. That's our issue.
When we saw this suggestion, we wondered. On our side, we conducted plenty of surveys before taking a position on issues. Some of these surveys are used. In other cases, when the opinion is divided, we don't use the data and we don't take a position. Do we have to declare every question, every stance? Are polls part of grassroots lobbying? Is it just a letter campaign? In the latter case, should it be recorded once or should each letter be recorded?
We had many questions due to the lack of clarity. In our submission, we asked to learn a bit more about this initiative, particularly regarding how it would be implemented. As they say, the devil is in the details.
Conservative
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'll pick up where I left off because I find the topic interesting.
Mr. Shore, you seem to speak of Parliament as a place that would have all the powers. Personally, I was elected a year ago, and I'll tell you what I see.
Ms. Sabourin, you said earlier that those who enforce the laws should not be the ones who make them. In theory, those who are subject to the law should not be the ones who make it either.
Here at the committee, we make recommendations, conduct studies and invite witnesses. Currently, however, Parliament is mostly made up of Liberal members, and we have just experienced a situation here where a debate that was taking place behind closed doors was suspended. How can we hope to be completely clear and transparent when those who will be subject to the law have an influence on what is voted on by Parliament? These people will not vote in favour of a bill that will be used to investigate them.
Every time I bring up this subject here with many witnesses, whether they represent the Royal Canadian Mounted Police or other organizations, they tell me that what I'm saying is accurate. For his part, the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner tells us to amend the laws. However, those who amend the laws are those who hold the majority in Parliament. At some point, it comes down to the same thing.
I believe your vision is the right one: We should have a Parliament that is truly connected to the people. How can we hope to demonstrate transparency when there's a problem within the mechanism itself?
partner, Gowling WLG, As an Individual
My sense is that we have significant ways of communicating today, whether it's through this, grassroots lobbying or a whole range of various areas. To a great extent, the public is aware when there are discussions going on with parliamentarians. To a great extent, what we're looking at right now is a set of circumstances whereby we want to find the right balance. The fact that this committee is doing the work it's doing right now in the public arena is extremely important.
This is also an opportunity through, for example, the work of Christina Santini, to provide the information with respect to her members and for us to be able to reach out to clients...and Hill Times articles we've written.
At the end of the day, it is the back-and-forth and then finding, I would say, a delicate balance.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
You talk about transparency, and that's what we're asking for.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
Currently, the act sets the threshold at eight hours per month, and this amendment was made by someone holding an independent commissioner position.
Do you believe that commissioners should have more powers?
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
Even so, every independent commissioner who testified before the committee told us that, to be fairer, there should be a third party.
I'll conclude by saying this: We need a mechanism to be set up. We are the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics, a committee responsible for oversight. Now we no longer even have the majority of the votes; we can no longer hold the government accountable. How can this possibly be fair, in your opinion?
partner, Gowling WLG, As an Individual
It is because those commissioners of lobbying are advocates as well. I'm perfectly glad that they are actually—
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
All commissioners are at arm's length from Parliament. I'm not just talking about him.
partner, Gowling WLG, As an Individual
I know they're independent, of course, but the way in which they advocate and say there should be further transparency by expanding those rules and opening them up.... I can understand that they may want to say that, but then there's a dialogue to determine whether it really makes sense and whether it will make a difference. I think it ultimately comes to a point that it's overburdened and, at the end of the day, all of that information, as I was—