Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Finance on Bill C-38 Committee on May 29th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

I call the meeting to order.

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. This is the third meeting of the Subcommittee on Bill C-38, pursuant to our Standing Orders, studying responsible resource development.

We have witnesses on our first panel here who are ready to give testimony. We welcome David McGuinty, a member of Parliament for Ottawa South. From the Assembly of First Nations, we have Shawn A-in-chut Atleo, national chief. From the British Columbia Coast Pilots Association, we have Fred Denning, president. And we have Dr. David Schindler, professor of ecology, in the department of biological sciences at the University of Alberta.

The way I do this, witnesses, is to go down the list of people in the order in which they appear on the agenda. You will each have up to 10 minutes to make your presentations, and then we will proceed to rounds of questioning.

I will advise committee members right now that based on some of the occurrences that are going on in the House of Commons, I would expect that we're not going to get through the full two hours of this particular panel. However, we will stretch it as long as we possibly can to make sure we maximize the use of the time of our distinguished guests who are here. We can deal with that particular issue at the moment the bells start ringing.

Let's now proceed to the witnesses.

Without further ado, Mr. McGuinty, please go ahead for up to 10 minutes.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee.

I am here to testify today on the unfortunate and short-sighted decision to close down the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy.

For those of you who don't know, I had the privilege of serving as president and chief executive officer of the round table for almost nine years. The purpose of the round table is to act as a catalyst throughout Canadian society. Prime Minister Mulroney legislated it into existence as the principal institutional response by Canada to the Rio Earth Summit in 1992. The notion was at the time that a super-departmental institution, something above all of the line departments, would be based in the Prime Minister's office, not necessarily to row, but to steer, to help change the course of our ship of state by providing objective, balanced—

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, I believe the scope of this committee is to study part 3 of the budget implementation act. I do not believe the topic Mr. McGuinty is discussing is within the scope of part 3.

[Robert Chisholm, NDP, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

On the point of order, Mr. Chairman, surely to heavens we can allow the presenter to begin to introduce his remarks without being harassed by members of this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

Mr. Chisholm, members are free to bring up points of order. I will have to check the veracity of the point of order. I don't see any member bringing a point of order forward that talks about our process and the mandate of the committee as harassment.

My understanding is—and, Mr. McGuinty, this subcommittee's hands are tied. We have our mandate from the finance committee specifically saying what our mandate of research and report and our area of study should be. That is quite specific in the report that was used. It was tabled in the House of Commons. It was the second report of the finance committee, and it outlined in quite specific detail what our mandate is.

Generally speaking, I do allow very broad testimony from witnesses. So I would ask, out of respect for that mandate, Mr. McGuinty, that you keep your comments as focused as possible on the relevance of the national round table, if that's what you're here to talk about, and how it would apply to part 3 of the bill. I would very much appreciate you doing that.

Please continue, sir.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I need your guidance then, Mr. Chair. The round table is being eliminated in the bill?

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

Ms. Rempel, it was your point of order. Do you have a specific part or section that you can refer to in the bill?

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

I believe the national round table is in part 4 of the BIA.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

If that's the case, let me just check with the clerk.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Chair, you ruled on this a week and a half ago. We had some discussion on this last night. We had ministers coming forward who talked about a wide, wide variety of issues, touching on the environment, touching on the economy. It certainly went far, far beyond the mandate of even the finance committee.

Surely Mr. McGuinty coming forward today to talk about something that is directly impacted in the budget and the budget bill is something this committee can listen to. He has ten minutes. I would just ask you to allow him to continue and to stop the points of order, which are simply trying to, I believe, intimidate witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

Mr. Storseth, on the same point of order.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Let's look at the terms of reference given to this committee:

A. pursuant to Standing Orders 108(1)(a) and 108(1)(b), a Subcommittee on Bill C-38 (Jobs, Growth and Long-term Prosperity Act) be established to examine the clauses contained in Part 3 (Responsible Resource Development) of the Bill....

Now, that is very specific. This topic is not in part 3.

You can also refer, Mr. Chairman, to O'Brien and Bosc, where it states:

Members of Parliament and political parties are not allowed to do indirectly what they cannot do directly.

What the Liberal Party is trying to do by bringing this up is a backdoor way to get another part of the budget bill discussed here.

I have no problem; I look forward to hearing Mr. McGuinty's testimony. Hopefully it will be pursuant to our Standing Orders and to the topic that we're here to discuss.

This is a very in-depth topic. I understand that the opposition had trouble last night making any headway on part 3.

I think we should focus on what we were given to focus on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

Ms. Duncan, on the same point of order.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would think that this committee would want to hear evidence, that they would want to hear science-based practices, that they would want to hear about consultation, about bringing the economy and the environment together. We keep hearing that they're the same side of the coin, but from yesterday we had very one-sided views. It was the economy and....

I'm not finished.

This is someone who has had direct experience. He was the president and CEO of the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy. This is a national consultation. It is bringing the economy and the environment together. He is recognized as one of the foremost Canadian experts on brownfields, green budgeting, and the links amongst the economy, the environment, and social issues.

He has been invited here, and I think it's incumbent upon us to listen to this Canadian expert.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

Ms. Rempel, on the same point.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

To your comments earlier, Mr. Chair, I believe your comment was to have the witness stay relevant to the scope of part 3 of the BIA.

I believe, if one checks the record, the witness started off with something akin to “I'm here to talk about the national round table”, which is included in part 4 of the BIA.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

Mr. Anderson.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Chair, I think it's important that we stay inside the scope of what we were given from the finance committee. We have some fairly specific parameters here.

When Ms. Duncan says it's all fine...and she can give us the bio of Mr. McGuinty, but the activity that we have been charged with is to study part 3. If he has as much expertise as she has claimed he has, he should be able to stay inside the parameters of part 3 in his presentation and in the question and answer session as well. I think it's reasonable to expect that he....

He's familiar with this bill. He knows we're discussing it. He should be able to stay inside part 3 if he's going to make his presentation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

I'd like to thank all honourable colleagues for their interventions on this.

I'm in a very difficult situation here. When I first saw the witness list being submitted, I looked at the fact that the witness who is currently testifying before this committee is a sitting member. I like to extend to members privileges in this place. It is a bit of an oddity and a rarity to have a member appear as a witness before a committee, other than during the presentation of their own private member legislation.

So we started off, and I humoured this right from the get-go, because I thought it was important that if there was something valuable to be brought to the table, then it should be heard. However, I am not at liberty to go outside the scope that was handed to us by the finance committee.

Ms. Duncan, you and Mr. McGuinty are experienced parliamentarians here. The mandate that we were given from the finance committee was quite clear in its subject content, that we were only to study part 3. The finance committee, the main committee, is studying parts 1, 2, and 4 of this bill. If Mr. McGuinty wanted to testify as a Liberal witness before the committee in dealing with the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy, he should have made that representation before the main committee of finance.

Mr. McGuinty, I don't want to excuse witnesses from the committee. I don't think that's appropriate. However, I would ask that you stick within the purview of part 3 for the remainder of your comments, which would enable your testimony here to continue at this meeting.

Please continue, sir.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Perhaps, then, through you, Mr. Chair, you can enlighten me. Just give me the parameters, please, so I can make sure I frame these to satisfy the Conservative members here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

Mr. McGuinty, why don't we do this, then? In the interest of time, I'll move on to Mr. Atleo. In the meantime, we can find...and get you briefed, rather than using the committee's time, on the scope of part 3. We'll move on with the other three witnesses, and I'll have you back at the end of the agenda to finish your ten minutes.

Is that okay?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

It's fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

Thank you.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I don't need a briefing, sir. I can adjust my remarks extemporaneously quite comfortably.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

Part 3 is going to take me some time to explain to you. I would rather that somebody explain it to you not in the use of the committee's time. That will give you an opportunity to review that. We'll move on with the other witnesses right now and we'll get back to you at the end.

National Chief, the floor is yours for up to ten minutes, sir.

Can somebody please brief Mr. McGuinty on the...?