Finance Committee on June 12th, 2006

[Michel Dorais]

No, because, unfortunately, it's not as easy.... For example, if you visited our Winnipeg tax centre in May, you would see a very, very busy place. You'd have problems even walking in the halls there. If you visit the same centre in September, less than half the staff are working. Obviously, if we can find some business we can do there in the low months of the year.... We have a trained workforce there that works part-time and comes back year after year. It's not excess capacity, but we certainly have some capacity there. This is what we're trying.

When I say we're looking for new business in the core of our activities, it's business we can farm out to the various places where we already have capacity.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you.

Have you addressed the question--there was some debate some time ago that you need only apply, if you lived in the Ottawa area--of depriving—

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Yvan Loubier]

I'm sorry, Mr. Boshcoff, but your time is up. If there's any time left at the end, you can have another turn.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Yvan Loubier]

Mr. Del Mastro, you have five minutes.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First a comment. It does seem to me the agency is ahead of most government departments in terms of technology. I speak specifically of e-filing tax returns.

Just a couple of questions. The information we have runs up to 2004. I'm just wondering if the trend toward an increased number of tax returns being e-filed has continued. Second, has that led to you finding efficiencies or people receiving tax returns sooner? Maybe you could speak to the benefit of e-filing.

[Michel Dorais]

I'll try to speak and will be corrected by my people.

We pride ourselves on being at the forefront of technology. Effectively, our technology branch is strong, about 3,600 people, which makes it the biggest one, I think, in the federal government.

Although the fiscal year is not over--it will be three days from now--I think we will reach 53% for e-filing. Last year, it was very close to 50%, and it was 47% two years ago. So it's increasing a lot.

Now, there are some economies through e-filing, but they average about $2 per return. It's not huge, but the level of service has changed. We have a standard of service of 15 days for e-filing, for reimbursement, and we're meeting a standard of 12 days right now. So those who file electronically receive their reimbursement within 12 days in most cases, which is amazing.

Through “My Account”—and these are new services that have come out—you can change your address, you can appeal a decision, you can look at the last six years of your account, I think it is, and you have all the information. You can calculate a certain number of things directly from “My Account”. So the level of service has increased dramatically as a result.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

That's great.

I have nothing further.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Yvan Loubier]

Thank you, Mr. Del Mastro.

Mr. Christopherson's turn is left. Would any other colleagues like to speak one final time?

Ms. Ablonczy?

We will have Mr. Christopherson for five minutes, and Madam Ablonczy will finish up for the committee.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Merci, monsieur le président.

I'm going to take off my critic's hat--I am the critic for revenue. I don't normally get these opportunities. I would like to go back to the whole notion of the model, simply because if it does work--if it's a new direction for us and it works--then by all means, it may be something we want to look at in terms of replicating in other areas.

Again, there is no grilling here; I'm really just asking. Could you come back? I didn't really get the answer I was looking for earlier. I appreciate what you said, and I'm sure it's important from a management perspective, but I didn't get a sense of the structural building blocks in going down this road. How does it provide better service? In other words, what are the things that are working so well that maybe we ought to think about transferring them to, or applying them in, other areas of government?

[Michel Dorais]

The model is composed of three pillars. One is the board of management; there are 15 members. I'm the only civil servant on that board, as the CEO of the organization. All other members, by law, have to come from the private sector. Twelve members are nominated by provinces and territories, and they cannot be employees of the provinces; three members are nominated by the federal government, including the chair. I think the chair, Connie Roveto, appeared in front of this committee last year.

That's the board that is accountable--and legally accountable--for all the management of the agency. The minister is not. The minister is responsible in front of Parliament and answers questions, but in fact I never discuss management issues with the minister. I'm always accountable to the board. I will provide the minister with all the information--

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Would the chair have that kind of dialogue with the minister?

[Michel Dorais]

No. Very often the chair and the minister will meet and they will exchange. Their official powers are in the act; the minister can give directives to the board and the board can give a recommendation to the minister. These powers have never been used in the five years.

What the board is looking to is whether it's well managed or not. Like a private corporation, they have an audit committee for all the management. The minister gives us program direction; the board has no access to taxpayer files and has no access to programs. The minister has this access. The minister gives us the political direction we need, and the board gives us the management direction, just as a private corporation board would. I'm accountable to both, and my performance is assessed by both.

That model works well in areas in which there is very little policy content--we do no policy--and a very high operational content, which we do. Especially since the border points have left the agency, we are no longer involved in preserving the territory of Canada or defending the border. We are strictly involved in financial transactions with taxpayers, trusts and corporations, and businesses. We handle money. We collect it and we give money to beneficiaries, so it's very highly operational, with a low policy content, and it has yielded some results.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Do I still have some time?

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Yvan Loubier]

You have two minutes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I think you said three pillars. I think you described one. What are the other two?

[Michel Dorais]

The last one is the commissioner. The commissioner is responsible in the act for the day-to-day management of the agency, so I'm responsible and accountable directly by legislation for the day-to-day management of the agency.

Mr. Baker would like to say something.

[William Baker]

I wanted to mention something that hasn't been mentioned: the authorities given to the Revenue Agency for human resources management. This place starts and ends with people. The authorities we now have allow us considerable latitude in the way we classify, in the way we structure ourselves, and in the way we treat employees.

To give you one example, in the Canada Revenue Agency we created a group called the management group, which regroups anyone who's in a supervisory role, by and large; we work with that group. They have a separate classification--unionized, but a separate classification--and we've created a process by which you can get alignment for the strategic direction and identification of a management community.

I point this out because it's something we've done at the CRA that has been under close observation by the rest of the public service, as have a number of other HR practices. I just spent three and a half years outside the CRA, and believe me, many places would covet the opportunity to do what we've been able to do with our authorities. I think it's reflected in our employee satisfaction in public service surveys. It's very encouraging.

[Michel Dorais]

The human resources element is important. We do our own collective bargaining. We get our collective bargaining mandate from the board of management. I'm the negotiating partner with the union. We sign the agreement with them.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Am I done? Merci, monsieur.

Thank you all very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Yvan Loubier]

I'm sorry, but your time is up. I don't like to interrupt you in this way. However, it is my responsibility to do so, in a courteous manner, of course.

Ms. Ablonczy.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I have one final question.

As legislators, of course, we're interested in the adequacy of the legislation that you operate under. I'd like you to advise the committee as to whether there are any changes or adjustments or additions you'd like to see in your governing legislation that will allow you to carry out your mandate more effectively.

[Michel Dorais]

The legislation is not perfect. Certainly there are always ways to improve. But we figure that with five years of experience with this new model, it's a little early to recommend to the committee any specific changes.

This is why we would like to encourage the committee to have another five-year review, which would be four years from now, as we implement the further changes and as we evolve. I think that time might be the time for the committee to make a final decision on whether this model is a good public service model--it exists nowhere else, in none of the provinces either--and whether that model for operational areas is something we should pursue and what amendments should be made to the act.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

That's helpful. Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Yvan Loubier]

Thank you, Ms. Ablonczy.

Ms. Ratansi, you told me earlier that you would like another turn.