Finance Committee on Sept. 26th, 2006

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you very much.

I have kept my last question for Mr. Ouellette from the Canadian Alliance of Students Association. I was involved myself for a long time in some associations, not so long ago, as you can probably guess. I remember that at that time we were hearing about the Millennium Scholarships. Quebec had a good bursary system. So we asked for that money to be simply given to the Quebec government so that it could improve the existing system, rather than having another layer at the national level that would have different objectives.

If I understand your proposal correctly, you still want to see the federal government involved in improving scholarships and therefore involved in the education field.

Do you agree with the Quebec student movement, which is calling instead for a special status? If the rest of Canada wants to do things differently, it can choose to do so, but people are asking that the federal government not interfere with what is being done right now in Quebec, and that the money be given to the Quebec program.

[Phillippe Ouellette]

That is a good question. The Canada Millennium Scholarship Foundation negotiated a contract with the provinces. The foundation's representatives go to each province, develop a strategy and sign a contract with the province. That is what happened in Quebec. The same cannot be said for Human Resources and Social Development Canada. In that case, there were no negotiations with the Quebec government. I believe that the work of the Canada Millennium Scholarship Foundation reflects the kind of federalism that students in Quebec want to see. They want the kind of federalism where the federal government goes to each province and decides on the funding that will go to students that need it most. That it what was done in Quebec.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

A lot of student associations in Quebec have told me that the Canada Millennium Scholarship Foundation lacks transparency. I do not think that things have worked as smoothly as you say. There were major negotiations that were very difficult, and the Quebec government, in order to get the money, often had to give in, and accepted constraints.

Is it normal that the system governing loans and scholarships in Quebec should be determined by the board of directors of a foundation headed by unelected people, who are not accountable to Parliament and whose books are outside the auspices of Parliament, rather than elected officials in Quebec?

[Phillippe Ouellette]

I think that it is true. We do not claim that there are no problems with the Canada Millennium Scholarship Foundation. We do feel that its accounting practices should be improved. On the other hand, it works, and every province receives funding.

I want to point out something else, which is very important. The government changes every year. A foundation cannot change like a department or program. The mandate of the Canada Millennium Scholarship Foundation has not changed.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Massimo Pacetti]

Thank you, Mr. St-Cyr.

Mr. Dykstra, you have five minutes.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you. I do have one question for Mr. Amott in regard to the program and its concept, and following up a little bit on what Mr. Turner asked. The one issue I have that sits in my mind and makes it extremely difficult to get past the first hurdle is my sense that this is a connection between a student achieving or getting a particular loan from the government and the way in which he or she may pay back that loan by signing off an insurance. Could you take me through that to make sure that's not what it is?

[Jeremy Amott]

It doesn't act that way at all. There's no moral hazard with this plan. When a Canadian citizen between the ages of 24 and 27 sits down with their insurance representative of choice or perhaps walks into an office to talk about this idea, basically what's happening is they're going to sign off. It's a selfless act of kindness. The participating citizens are throwing out a lifeline in every direction except to themselves. And they'll fully understand that before they agree to be part of it.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Okay.

One of the things that perhaps would help in terms of clarification, both to Mr. White and Mr. McAvity, is the point that the announcement that was made yesterday would not in fact affect smaller museums. It was more focused on the larger museums. In fact, smaller museums don't even fall under the funding program that was cut yesterday. I wanted to follow up on Mr. Turner's comments. In fact, there was a small announcement today of support for a museum in the north. I wanted to make you aware of that and perhaps do a little bit of follow-up over the next few days, if necessary.

I also want to follow up with both Mr. Ouellette and Mr. White. I have a university in my municipality. In fact, I think I'm developing a pretty good relationship with the student union there, which may not have occurred in the past, and I want to continue to do that.

I'm not sure if you guys have thought about this, but one of the questions that comes up--I know this is a broader point--is, where does our responsibility for students, or all of us who are going to attend university, start and where does the government's responsibility end?

[Phillippe Ouellette]

As we've stated in some of the discussion so far, obviously it's not only in the system. We first have to look at those who aren't accessing the system. It starts very early for both lifelong learners as well as people coming out of the K-to-12 system. How are we going to ensure that all can access the system? Obviously, there have to be some pathways to aid and facilitate that.

The second issue is obviously within the system, and that's what the current government has looked at with tax credits and has provided the appropriate funding to students for.

I think the third big one, which is one that is obviously a big concern for us because we're dealing with the student debts at the end of our studies, is the day after graduation. You have $35,000 worth of debt, so what's the next step? I think you really have to be there the whole way through the educational experience and higher learning.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

To follow up on that, one of the things...and I know the whole aspect of trying to tie the provinces to transparency and making sure that whatever dedicated moneys are there from the federal government to the provinces, you realize.... Maybe you will respond to this very briefly, if you could, that that type of transparency, obviously, will take quite a negotiation, and it isn't going to include only education. It's going to include health care, and further down the line try to hit a fiscal balance that has obviously been a struggle to try to find over the past number of years.

[Phillippe Ouellette]

I think you're absolutely right. We're aware that it's going to be very difficult. We know it was done for health care recently and we hope it can be done for education as well. It's time to do that. But I guess the bigger issue is, let's stop trying to see each jurisdiction trying to solve the post-secondary access problem by itself. There really needs to be a push toward building this, and I think the first serious step is the first ministers conference on post-secondary education. I think it would be a good first step.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Massimo Pacetti]

Thank you.

Mr. Dykstra, you have ten seconds.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

That's fine, thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Massimo Pacetti]

Mr. Del Mastro, and then we'll wrap it up.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to go back to the Canadian Alliance of Student Associations.

Maybe you have given some thought to this. It's something I struggle with, and a lot of people do. What is a reasonable amount students should have to pay for their education? What do you think it should cost annually? Do you have a number?

[Phillippe Ouellette]

That's a difficult question to ask. Our membership has tried, and the students have tried, and a number is very difficult. Unfortunately, I'm not going to tell you a number, but I can give you a statement.

The statement is that any academically qualified student who can attend and would like to attend post-secondary education should be able to do so without facing undue barriers that would prevent him or her from doing so, and that includes financial barriers. We're not just talking about financial. We're talking about other barriers. Students with disabilities is a good one.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

I agree with you. My mother is a former financial aid officer at Trent University, and when I graduated about 12 years ago I owed about $26,000, so I can relate to where you're coming from.

At some point we need to determine the student's contribution. In some cases it's a parental contribution, and they're not encumbered by any debt. Making loans more easily accessible isn't necessarily the answer to everything, but reform of the loan system, of the way it works, would achieve quite a bit of what we're looking for, and in coordination with better funding it would get us to where we need to go.

I don't like the exclusions in the loan process. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that. A lot of people don't qualify for loans and they don't have the ability to pay.

[Toby White]

Those are all really good points.

Part of what we're talking about when we talk about a review of financial assistance is loans. We need to commend both this government and the previous government for making changes to parental contribution requirements in the student loan program. We'll have to wait a few years to see the actual effects, but we're hoping that's going to allow a lot of those students who...and there are students for whom loans are a good way to help get them into the system. We're hoping to see some positive changes from that.

You're referring to the needs assessment process too. It doesn't always accurately represent what students need in a grant or a loan to go on to post-secondary. It doesn't acknowledge different living costs in urban versus rural areas. There need to be changes, not just in creating more grants but changes within the loan system as well.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

In Budget 2006 we made measures to approach that. I hope we'll continue to do so.

Mr. Dinsdale, I was very encouraged to hear you're actually transcending a lot of barriers in your outreach effort. You're working with first nations, recognized and otherwise. You're working with Métis. You're working with Inuit. I don't know of any groups that service all the groups, because they're fairly segregated from each other, aren't they?

[Peter Dinsdale]

They are and they're not. In urban areas across the country sometimes the artificial boundaries we put up between ourselves are just that, artificial, and very political in some respects. The people who come to our doors require services first and have affiliations with those notions second.

We've been doing this for 50-some years in many communities. There are other players out there. We're probably the biggest.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

What are some of the major challenges off-reserve aboriginals face versus on-reserve aboriginals?

[Peter Dinsdale]

I certainly don't want to minimize what's going on within first nations communities, because some tremendous challenges need to be met. My depositions here are open. I'm not minimizing those impacts.

People are coming to urban areas. There are second- and third-generation aboriginal people living in urban areas who are still healing from residential school issues and the cycles of abuse and dependencies many of our communities find themselves in. We have a rampant teen-parent situation where it is almost the expectation that children of young mothers will be young mothers as well. We need to have a better learning culture in our communities, where we set a higher standard for ourselves.

The barriers are multi-faceted. They are getting better, and with better support we can even go further in addressing some of those challenges.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Massimo Pacetti]

Thank you, Mr. Del Mastro.

Before we wrap up, I have two quick questions for the Canadian Alliance of Student Associations.

What are your recommendations? Are you recommending we split funds from the Canada social transfer?

How would you recommend we distribute the additional money? Is it per capita, or do you have another solution?

[Phillippe Ouellette]

I think it hasn't been determined; it obviously would be at the discretion of what would be best for the constituents you're working with.

We would see this coming out of the Canada social transfer, obviously, creating something specifically dedicated to post-secondary education, the Canada education and training transfer. This would then place some ties on the provinces to say, “Listen, this money needs to be spent on post-secondary education, and we really think it's important to be spending it in these areas.”