I appreciate that, and I think it's particularly relevant for our committee's work, since we are dealing with the issue of competitiveness. Of course, that means increased productivity.
Paul Moist, could you also address what I call a rather supercilious--I think that's a word—argument that Mr. Turner has been raising at our committee regularly? It is the notion that one must pay down all debts so that you'll have all this extra money to invest in things for the future. I think it would be useful to explain to him and others what's left after you've paid down the debt and what is the difference in cost, in terms of what's left for society as a whole.