Finance Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2006

[Blaise Salmon]

I think it's particularly important to maintain the poverty focus. For example, in Afghanistan and Iraq there's a tendency for aid to be diverted into areas that aren't purely poverty reduction. They sometimes have nothing to do with poverty reduction. I think it's very important for CIDA and our foreign aid money to stay focused on poverty reduction.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

I agree. You also talked about the issue of the fight against terrorism. We often hear this comment that, in the end, when we fight poverty, we fight indirectly terrorism.

I would tend to think that this is the case but is this something which is documented and demonstrated?

[Blaise Salmon]

In fact, I don't think it's exactly fair to say terrorism is caused by poverty. I think the general instability that comes from poverty might in fact create terrorism, but I'm not aware of any studies. I don't know about anyone else.

[Michael Loo]

No, I'm not aware of any.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

The other thing I wanted to know concerning your experience in foreign aid is whether you consider that the literacy issue is a good way to fight poverty in the world. Is it important or is it not really a priority?

[Blaise Salmon]

Absolutely. I think the World Bank has done a study that shows literacy, especially for girls, and education for girls is probably the single biggest investment that a country can make to fight poverty. In fact, the so-called Asian tiger countries that did this 20 to 30 years ago reaped the benefits of that.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Was it done by the World Bank?

[Blaise Salmon]

Yes.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

That's nice to know.

[Blaise Salmon]

I can get it to you.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

It would certainly be interesting to do the same thing in Canada in order to continue to fight illiteracy.

It was said that fuel cells possibly could help us reach our objectives under the Kyoto Protocol in order to reduce our greenhouse gases emissions.

Mr. Tak, do you have an idea of the cost asked from government per ton of reduction of greenhouse gases?

What would be the efficiency of a program where we would invest in fuel cells?

[John Tak]

Yes, the hydrogen and fuel cell technology definitely improves emission particulates for clean air and greenhouse gases. It's a zero emission or a near zero emission technology.

As to the cost, we're making a proposal to match what the private sector is doing. We're calling for $300 million a year in investment for the three areas I discussed. You can see that the $1 billion the private sector has invested in the last five years alone--and the 2,000 jobs that have been created--clearly pays for itself. We're talking about an investment that has a yield, an economic yield, but it also creates jobs and income. Hopefully, those jobs will then alleviate some of the problems we're talking about with poverty in the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you, Monsieur St-Cyr.

We will conclude with questions from Mr. Dykstra. You have five minutes, sir.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Tak, I'd like to continue with a couple of questions and a couple of points.

We spent a lot of time talking about the benefits, the cost-benefit or not, of what the result of an investment would make. Obviously, research is one area that you've been talking about. If the industry has invested $1 billion over years, it would necessitate partnership with the federal government to be able to try to do something similar. What is the cost-benefit?

We talked a little about greenhouse gas emissions going down. But on the cost, what are the hard facts? How much money are we actually going to invest versus how much revenue we can actually divert to other causes that are at the table today?

[John Tak]

Again, the investment the federal government has already made has been completely returned. The $100 million alone, in terms of the income tax of the 2,000 jobs and the economic spin-off benefits, have already been returned multi-fold. So there's the immediate yield.

In terms of your question related to the impact on greenhouse gases, we're talking about implementing a 20-fuel-cell bus fleet in Whistler before, during, and after the Olympics. Over the course of that, there will be a reduction of, I believe, 50,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide, which is a major greenhouse gas.

The yield on investment is clear. The impact on the environment is clear as well. And it's technology that's made here. Canada is the leader in this technology.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

One other to follow that up is, what do you think a reasonable investment would be from the federal government over the next two to three years?

[John Tak]

I think $300 million a year over the next 10 years would be a reasonable investment and would be matched by the private sector. It's not nearly what the U.S. is doing, but we are much more focused in what we're doing.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Lewis, I had a couple of questions. One was if you were familiar with the fact that this budget actually included $800 million for affordable housing across the country to be allocated on a per capita basis, and if you were aware of the fact that the funding would kick in actually in September and October of this year, based on a $2 billion surplus being found at the end of the fiscal year.

[Martha Lewis]

Yes, I'm aware of that, and the fact that it's going to roll out over three years instead of two. That certainly helps, but I think we do need more. I would refer the panel back to the numbers that Michael Shapcott of the Wellesley Institute provided, showing how investment in social housing could be funded. So yes, we're very aware of that.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

To your point that more is needed, that's where I wanted to go with that. British Columbia is going to get $108 million out of it directly, and for off-reserve aboriginal housing, $50.9 million. It's not a bad start.

[Martha Lewis]

A very good start.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

One of the questions I have asked and would like your response on is with respect to provincial and municipal responsibilities with respect to this issue. If the federal government is prepared to put $800 million on the table, should not all of the provinces collectively put the same amount of money on the table, and should not all the municipalities collectively put the same amount of money on the table? That would mean that all of a sudden we're talking about an investment of over $2 billion.

[Martha Lewis]

The municipalities do not have that sort of money to gather. It's not going to happen. But they can do a great deal in terms of density zoning, providing incentives for builders to include affordable housing in new developments--

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

It doesn't necessarily have to be cash.

[Martha Lewis]

It doesn't need to be cash. Of course the province has a responsibility too. We're not letting anyone off the hook. We'll criticize every level of government equally. They should all be working together to do something that's important.