Finance Committee on Oct. 5th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

First of all, welcome to our guests today. We look forward very much to your presentations this morning. Thank you for the time you've taken to be here with us and the time you've taken to prepare your briefs, which we have. I understand some of them are in translation; nonetheless, we will be reviewing them.

I know you're aware of the process, but just for the sake of review, we are the finance committee of the House of Commons. We've been charged with the responsibility of hearing briefs and receiving input, which we can then provide and forward to the Minister of Finance prior to the next budget.

It's an exciting process. This week we've spent about twenty hours in airplanes, so if you see a couple of beleaguered members of our committee coming in here a titch late, apologies in advance, but they will be reviewing the material.

The presentations, as you know, are limited to five minutes. I will give you an indication when you have one minute remaining and will cut you off at five minutes, in the interests of an exchange thereafter with committee members.

Let's begin. We'll start with the Regina Airport Authority, and Rob Slinger. Welcome. Five minutes to you, sir.

[Rob Slinger, Chief Executive Officer, Regina Airport Authority]

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you very much for coming to Saskatchewan. By the way, you're just in time for the Rolling Stones concert down yonder in Regina if you're looking for a detour on the way east.

This morning I'd like to offer you an opportunity to consider the airports network in Canada in general and in Saskatchewan in particular as an economic engine. Everybody knows of airports as places to go to get on and off airplanes, but those airports are generally, across Canada, economic engines in their community.

I have a particular factoid for you in Regina, to reconsider how that airport impacts its economy. A Boeing 737 landing and taking off creates eighteen person-months of employment in the community of Regina. That number would not be dramatically different at any airport in Canada. A different-sized aircraft might have a different number from eighteen person-months of employment, but it's a substantial economic activity, not just people getting on an airplane to travel.

In particular, to be successful in running that business of airports, there are several government roles. This morning I want to mention to you the airport rent challenge and removing that as an obstacle to us being successful in business. Secondly, the Canada Airports Act is in first-stage reading and has potential financial implications that I'd like to touch on.

From the airport rent tax perspective, to quote an ad on television, it's “hands in our pockets”. That means there is direct tax or rent money leaving our pockets. In fact, one dollar in my airport budget creates $35 worth of GDP. That's a pretty good ROI in my economy. Comparing that with the tax level, $14 of that $35 goes to three levels of government. So for each dollar you leave in our pocket, we're providing tremendous leveraging and return on that investment.

Another observation on the rent is that if the airports in turn are charged rent, we should be allowed to charge rent to government entities. For example, the customs people get free offices and free space, as do the CATSA security folks, and I'm not allowed to charge the Prime Minister a landing fee on his aircraft. Although the Prime Minister in turn pays for everything else, including his gas, his hotel, and his rental cars, etc., he gets free landing fees by direction of the Government of Canada.

Looking at the Canada Airports Act, the accountability provisions are very clear and very welcome. The challenge of commercial viability must be met by allowing the airports and encouraging the airports to operate subsidiary businesses, because we use those businesses to cross-subsidize and be competitive in the air fees that we charge for landing, etc. We require partnerships to do that, both amongst airports and amongst community businesses, and we require creative investment solutions in order to be as commercially viable as we possibly can.

So the bottom line is that it's all about the economy. The airports are key pieces of the economic engine, the economic infrastructure in our communities, and the Government of Canada roles are substantial in the areas of rent and the Canada Airports Act.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thanks, Rob, very much.

We continue now with the Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities, and David Marit. Welcome, sir. It's over to you.

[David Marit, President, Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the committee for this opportunity to meet with you today.

I just want to give a little history of our association. We are a volunteer organization in which all the rural municipalities in this province are volunteer members. Our organization celebrated its hundredth anniversary along with the province in 2005, so we have been here for over a hundred years. Our members span the province, of course, giving us a broad perspective of the issues of importance to rural Saskatchewan. I would like to touch on a few issues that are of concern to us.

In the agriculture sector, farmers again will face negative incomes for 2006, for the fourth year in a row. Low commodity prices and high input costs are offsetting high-quality yields in this province this year. Drought in the southwest and floods in the northeast are devastating many of our producers. The announcement of changes in the CAIS program and crop insurance is welcome news to Saskatchewan. We need to separate business risk management programs, and disaster relief programs have to be separated. Our programs need to be defined, reliable, and bankable to provide stability to the producers of this province.

Value-added programs to ensure producer involvement and ownership are vital to rural growth and to helping the producers' income crisis. Federal initiatives to encourage producer-ownership should be expanded. Value-added enterprises can foster growth and profitability for both farmers and their communities in rural Saskatchewan.

Biofuels present opportunities. All of Canada has the potential to benefit from the biofuels industry. The greatest achievement—or benefit, if you want to call it that—will be clean air for all Canadians. In rural Canada, the biofuels industry has the potential to increase demand for agricultural production, strengthen the rural economy, and provide much needed employment in rural Canada.

A healthy rural economy also means major economic benefit to all of Canada. Technical expertise and building materials would be for the most part sourced from our large urban centres.

We see three challenges that exist for the federal government in developing and implementing policies and incentives: ensuring the participation of agricultural producers in the ownership of biofuels facilities—a program such as BOPI is a good start; ensuring that facilities are located in rural communities; and ensuring that facilities are located in Canada rather than just south of the 49th parallel, with the raw product to fuel those facilities being shipped from Canada. In order to take advantage of the opportunities that exist, we must act as soon as possible or they will be lost forever. Time is of the essence.

On Western Economic Diversification Canada, in rural Canada the traditional sectors of agriculture, forestry, and fishing have changed dramatically in recent years. Other areas have to be developed to diversify the rural economy.

Western Economic Diversification has been a valuable program for rural Saskatchewan. Many successful economic development projects have benefited from seed money received through the program. Examples of this are Action Swift Current; the Exploring Saskatchewan's Nuclear Future Conference; the Potash Interpretative Centre in Esterhazy; and the Saskatchewan Canola Development Commission's canola biodiesel research. Various other economic development studies have also received seed money from this program.

The Clearing the Path initiative is a joint initiative between SARM and SUMA to encourage development and growth in rural communities. As our population and levels of service decline, we are encouraging communities and neighbouring municipalities to work together to attract and build economic development. The Clearing the Path committee has received funding and is in the process of hiring three resource people to assist in planning Clearing the Path economic initiatives in these communities. These people work with groups such as your regional economic development authorities to develop plans and working relationships between different groups and municipalities.

Infrastructure is my final one. Good infrastructure is vital to the economy in rural Saskatchewan. A large area in rural Saskatchewan does not have access to primary-weight highways or roads, which puts us at a disadvantage in many communities. One of the key recommendations of Clearing the Path is to establish a province-wide primary-weight corridor system. Municipalities do not have the financial resources to complete the primary road system on their own. They need help to complete construction of the corridor system from the federal and provincial governments in the form of an expanded prairie grain roads program.

The federal government has contributed $106 million to the Saskatchewan portion of the prairie grain roads program. This contribution has been levered to contributions from municipalities and the province, with the result being over $215 million invested in roads, both highway and municipal, in the province. The announcement of a new PGRP program is essential to ensure that the corridor is completed and our communities can achieve their full potential.

In conclusion, we agree that if Canada is to prosper in the future, we must be proactive and prepared. Rural Saskatchewan is a vital part of Canada and its economy. However, it has unique needs. Rural communities require targeted financial assistance as we work on diversifying our economies and maintaining and improving our infrastructure.

Thank you for this opportunity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you very much, sir.

We continue with the Council of CEOs of Regional Colleges of Saskatchewan, and Brian Nylander. Welcome. It's over to you.

[Bryan Nylander, President and Chief Executive Officer, North West Regional College, Council of CEOs of Saskatchewan's Regional Colleges]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am here today with my colleague Mark Frison, president of Cypress Hills Regional College, and we are representing the eight regional colleges in Saskatchewan's post-secondary system. Among the eight colleges, we cover the lion's share of the geography of the province. Together, we have more than forty sites across the province, and we serve the entire province with exception of the four most populous cities, namely Saskatoon, Prince Albert, Regina, and Moose Jaw. In addition, our association represents the Saskatchewan interests of Lakeland College, Canada's interprovincial college.

Our colleges offer a wide variety of programs, including adult basic education, literacy, technology and applied arts programs, trade training, and university studies. These programs are delivered to learners close to home. To that end, we have sites in centres as large as 20,000 people and as small as a couple of hundred. Our institutions are structured to be responsive to employer, learner, and community needs. As a result, our programming mix in any given community can change considerably. This allows us to use our resources to maximize advantage in serving labour market requirements.

First, Mr. Chairman, we think it is instructive to share with you our view of the current public policy context for this budget, and our advice. Canada continues to search for its place in the global economy, and I think it is clear to most that we need to build an economy that is based on knowledge and skills. While the economy has been strong and resilient for more than a decade, our prosperous future is not assured. More must be done to ensure that Canada is positioned to be competitive for the next two decades.

The economy of our great province has experienced tremendous growth recently, especially in the resource-based sectors. Our economic future looks bright if we can realize the potential of this sector. To do so, we must address the challenges of labour and skill shortages facing business and industry in this province. While high unemployment characterized the challenge faced by the economy in the late eighties and early nineties, labour and skill shortages will be a significant challenge over the coming decade. This will require a different set of policy and program tools if we are to address the problem.

Human Resources and Skills Development Canada estimates that in the next five years, nine out of ten jobs will require a high school diploma. Further, 75% of the new jobs created will require a post-secondary education. Clearly, if we are to meet the skill challenges, we must find ways as a country to ensure that more folks complete high school and attend our colleges and universities. The Government of Canada must play a leadership role in ensuring the accessibility of Canada's colleges and universities. We need to make full participation in post-secondary education a national preoccupation.

We must build learner support systems that encourage everyone to pursue at least some post-secondary education, whether it is at a one-year certificate, two-year diploma, or four-year degree level. This may require revisiting Canada's student assistance system to ensure that it has all the appropriate incentives to have folks enter that first year of post-secondary studies. Further, it needs to ensure that individuals from lower-income families are provided with the necessary resources and incentives to pursue college or university studies.

One of the opportunities for Saskatchewan lies in our large young aboriginal population. As you are aware, Mr. Chairman, the demographics of the aboriginal community are different, and there is a large young cohort that could help mitigate the labour shortage this province will face. However, more must be done to help this population prepare. High school completion rates among the aboriginal population lag far behind the non-aboriginal population. This makes a tremendous difference in terms of labour force participation. Aboriginal peoples without a high school diploma have a labour force participation rate of 37%. With a high school diploma, that labour force participation rate rises to 65%. The Government of Canada has a compelling interest in aboriginal people and needs to invest more heavily in education funding if we are to ensure that this population is able to enjoy a better quality of life and make a more substantial economic contribution to the country.

Mr. Chairman, in addition to our aboriginal population, more must be done to ensure that all Canadians are prepared to fully participate in the workforce. Skills deficits keep far too many Canadian citizens on the economic sidelines. If Canada is going to increase its productivity, we must do more to improve the literacy of our citizens. Low literacy levels hamper our productivity and threaten our economic prosperity. The recent international adult literacy survey showed that four in ten Canadians do not have the required literacy skills to learn new job skills or participate fully in the workplace. This presents a major challenge as we continue to propel into a global knowledge and information economy. While we understand that the Government of Canada is currently re-examining its role in literacy, we think this is an area that requires national leadership and more robust investment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Your time has just elapsed now, so we'll look forward to more commentary during the exchange with the members. Thank you, Mr. Nylander.

We'll continue now with the Saskatchewan Union of Nurses, and Marlene Brown. Welcome, Marlene. Proceed.

[Marlene Brown, First Vice-President, Saskatchewan Union of Nurses]

Thank you, and good morning. My name is Marlene Brown. I'm a registered nurse and the first vice-president of the Saskatchewan Union of Nurses.

The Saskatchewan Union of Nurses represents 7,700 registered nurses and registered psychiatric nurses employed in long-term care, home care, acute care, primary care, public health, mental health, community health, and blood supply services.

SUN supports the presentation that our national organization, the Canadian Federation of Nurses Unions, has already made to this committee. Our presentation will differ, as we will focus on what we believe must be a priority issue for the next federal budget: the urgent need for investment in a comprehensive, pan-Canadian health human resources plan.

What new information or perspectives can nurses from Saskatchewan offer this committee? A cautionary tale. The 2004 federal–provincial ten-year plan to strengthen health care committed the provinces to increase the supply of health professionals; to set targets for training, recruitment, and retention of professionals; to make those commitments public; and to regularly report on progress. Despite that commitment, Saskatchewan's health minister continues to refuse to set targets for retention and recruitment of RNs and RPNs. Here's what our minister says about targets: “Even if we put a number on it (targets for more nurses), there’s no guarantee that we would be able to meet that number in any case.” There are no targets, no public commitments, and no regular reports on progress.

Saskatchewan's continuing failure to commit to a comprehensive nursing shortage strategy has left our province extremely vulnerable. The first wave of the looming nursing shortage has hit Saskatchewan hard and much earlier than other provinces. The consequences are unfilled vacancies, short-staffed units, increased patient morbidity and mortality, more bed closures, longer waiting lists, future facility closures, and a sharply escalating cost of effective intervention as the shortage intensifies. We believe we offer an early warning sign for other provinces: follow Saskatchewan's example at your peril.

Along with our dark warning, we can also offer a sunnier and more optimistic insight: evidence that genuine commitment and well-funded, comprehensive health human resource strategies will work. For example, Saskatchewan has implemented the most comprehensive and generously funded program of physician recruitment and retention programs in Canada, producing a 15% increase in the supply of physicians in Saskatchewan between 1998 and 2005—progress which outstripped all other provinces.

Another example is to compare Saskatchewan's performance with Manitoba's, a province with similar resources and similar nursing recruitment and retention issues. In the year 2000, the Manitoba government sat down with the Manitoba Nurses' Union, nursing colleges, and employers, and crafted a five-point plan to increase the supply of nurses. The resulting 6.7% increase in their RN workforce since 2000 is a testament to real commitment, real targets, and real action.

By contrast, Saskatchewan's failure to act has produced a declining RN workforce while all other provinces except Nova Scotia have managed to produce net increases. One-third of our nursing workforce will be eligible for retirement by 2010. In addition, Saskatchewan loses one-third of our nurses to other provinces, the worst retention in Canada.

SUN believes our experience in Saskatchewan supports our recommendation that the next federal budget must bolster the federal–provincial ten-year plan to strengthen health care. The federal government can play a strong role in readying the nursing workforce for the future through a comprehensive pan-Canadian health human resource strategy that is adequately funded. Canada must ensure that funding rewards and supports commitment, specific targets, and increased numbers of nursing education seats, as well as innovation and research on health human resource retention and recruitment strategies.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you very much.

We'll continue with a representative from Genome Prairie, Lisa Jategaonkar.

[Lisa Jategaonkar, Director of Communications, Genome Prairie]

Mr. Chairman and distinguished members of the finance committee, thank you for travelling to Saskatoon and allowing us to highlight our viewpoint on today's topic, Canada's place in a competitive world. In this context, we would specifically like to address the significance of genomics to this region.

Genomics research is large-scale research. It involves looking at the DNA, finding all the genes, and deciphering what they do. Because all living things have a genome or set of genes, genomics is fundamental to all areas of life sciences and their associated business sectors. These can include vaccines, nutrition, crops, environment, forestry, and disease.

Genome Canada, along with the regional centres, wants to make Canada a leader in genomics. A few years ago, Canada was behind in its understanding of the genome. As a result, it was limited in its capacity for medical and agricultural research. Genome Canada has brought this nation from a position where we were behind our competitors, to one where we're world leaders in certain areas of medicine and agriculture.

To this region, Genome Canada has also been critical to the competitive success of our life sciences sector. Genome Prairie has led research activity valued at about $75 million, with approximately half this amount contributed by Genome Canada and the rest contributed by other partners in the academic, private, and regional sectors. It has led to several hundred highly skilled jobs; trained a hundred students in leading-edge science; resulted in about 15 inventions or patents; and published more than 175 scientific papers.

Currently, Genome Prairie is involved in research that looks at hereditary and infectious diseases, canola diversification, and crop adaptation to environmental stress. These research programs will offer significant benefits to this region. They will do this by reducing farm gate losses and costs, reducing health care costs, and providing new market opportunities. I'd like to provide a few examples of each of these three.

Firstly, at the farm gate, genomics creates cost savings with crops that are better protected against the elements of nature. For example, we're working on frost-tolerant wheat, which has the potential to protect farmers against multi-million-dollar losses. I believe Mr. Marit has already elaborated on the importance of the problems with flooding that occurred here in Saskatchewan, as well as in Manitoba. We're looking at ways by which crops can actually protect themselves against waterlogging that occurs during flooding. And Genomics Prairie is also researching higher-yielding varieties. Hardier crops such as these protect Canada against farm gate losses.

Second of all, in health care, Manitoba researchers have initiated a worldwide project to determine the function of every gene in the human body. This has been dubbed one of the most significant steps in medical research, and it will lead to numerous treatments for genetic diseases such as cancer. We're also looking at infectious diseases and developing new diagnostics and therapeutics, which will ultimately lead to a reduction in health care costs.

The third area I wanted to address was the idea that Canada's future competitiveness relies on our ability to seize new market opportunities. Two emerging areas that are of importance to this region are nutrigenomics and bio-oils. Nutrigenomics, which is a combination of nutrition and genomics, provides an understanding of how our food interacts with our genes. It can lead to preventative strategies to improve the health of Canadians and reduce associated health care costs. Even more so, the development of these novel value-added foods can also increase the international competitiveness of Canada's agri-food industry.

Mr. Marit has also mentioned biofuels or bio-oils. These can be used to reduce the reliance on fossil fuels and can provide a renewable source of industrial feedstocks and energy. Diversification of plant crops to provide these bio-oils will also provide new value-added opportunities for our farmers.

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, genomics examines the molecular world of genes, DNA, and protein. By the examples illustrated here today, though, you can see that an examination of the molecular world can be used to address some very big challenges, such as health care and agriculture, and to approach new market opportunities to remain competitive. By investing in genomics research, we are investing in agriculture, in health care, and in our country.

Thank you very much for your time. I would be pleased to answer any questions from the members of the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you very much for your presentation.

We'll continue with the representative from the Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce, Colin Taylor. Welcome, sir. Proceed.

[Colin Taylor, Co-Chair, Investment and Growth Committee, Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce]

Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity to address your panel.

I am a volunteer member with the Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce, and my role is co-chair of the investment and growth committee. In my day job, I'm a certified general accountant in public practice, so I live and breathe the things you guys and ladies talk about on a day-to-day basis.

I know you have already heard from the Canadian Chamber of Commerce. What we want to do today is focus on some of the issues that are most important to the members of the Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce.

First and foremost, the small business corporate tax threshold was originally set at $200,000 years and years ago. The increases to $300,000 and now $400,000 are welcome, but we believe the federal level needs to at least match the $500,000 recently announced by Saskatchewan—and if you can go higher than that, that's good.

The reason is that harmonization between personal, corporate, and dividend tax rates means that companies try to bonus down to the small business limit. Any time that happens, it leaves the door open for those funds to leave the business forever. Small and medium-size enterprises are the drivers for new employment, and profits left in the company translate into new property, plants and equipment, and investment in working capital to fund continued, stable growth.

However, overall we need to recognize the globalization of business and the investment climate. Corporations that pay the top corporate tax rates tend to have the most options as to where to locate their operations, and we have to pay attention to their decisions.

Corporate tax cuts are a proven method of economic growth. The Republic of Ireland is a prime example of a nation that used corporate tax cuts to bolster and diversify its economy. A reduction in corporate tax will translate into increased investment by companies currently in operation in Canada, as well as attracting new business from other parts of the world.

Personal income tax cuts previously announced have been suspended in favour of reducing the GST. While tax cuts are always welcome, reductions in personal income tax would be a preferable focus, more so than a reduction in the GST.

More needs to be done to make sure the income tax system is competitive on the continental and global level, and now is not the time to stop the reductions. Global decisions on where to locate head offices, for example, are frequently based on personal tax rates. In Saskatchewan, we have seen many senior executives or larger organizations relocated to lower tax regimes in the United States. This also means a loss of support staff jobs.

Now is the best time to resume personal tax rate decreases, as we continue to see substantial surpluses in the federal budget. Currently the highest tax bracket starts at $113,000 in Canada. In the United States, the same bracket doesn't start until $159,000 U.S. An increase to $150,000 for the top bracket in Canada, we believe, would help to retain or even bring high-income earners to Canada. And we also need to look at the other tax brackets to ensure we're being competitive. We don't want to just focus on the over-$100,000.

Federal program spending rose at annual average rates far in excess of the inflation rates for the fiscal periods between 2000 and 2004. When there are surpluses, it's very easy to let spending get out of control, but taxpayers expect a better performance from their government. A long-term program spending plan needs to be developed in order to ensure that maximum potential for economic growth is reached. This means investing in areas where productivity and economic growth will result, such as research and development.

And finally, debt reduction must be a priority in the budget process for Canada. The debt-to-GDP ratio has fallen, but Canada needs to continue with the reductions.

As a very final point, we urge the federal government to ensure that the surplus in the employment insurance program is used for the reduction of premiums, not for expanding benefits beyond the original intent. This intent was, of course, to provide insurance against unintended periods of unemployment.

Mr. Chairman, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you very much, sir.

Thank you, all. Those were excellent presentations.

We'll now move to questions, and we'll start with Mr. Savage, for seven minutes.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome to the panel.

It's nice to be back in Saskatoon. It's one of my favourite communities in Canada.

I would just comment on the fact that the Rolling Stones are appearing in Regina. We had them in Halifax a couple of weeks ago. It was a great show, but I hope your weather is better. Is it this weekend that they're appearing? Good luck with that.

Ms. Brown, you mentioned the fact that Saskatchewan is one of only two provinces with a declining RN workforce, my own province of Nova Scotia being the other. You're graduating 220 annually, you now have a vacancy of 270, and the gap is a further 350. Am I getting that right?

[Marlene Brown]

Sorry, but I missed the last figure.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

In your brief, you indicate that there's a vacancy of 270 nurses right now, but you also indicate that you would need an additional 350 nurses to meet professional standards of staffing. So the gap is somewhere in the range of 600 persons.

We're the House of Commons standing committee. Is there something specific you think the federal government should do over and above the framework of the ten-year plan to strengthen health care, which seems to be increasing nurses in other parts of the country but not in Saskatchewan? Is there something specific that you think the federal government should do to help address that shortfall here in Saskatchewan?

[Marlene Brown]

The very point that some provinces are increasing leads us to know there are strategies that could be used. Given that the federal government's goals are to reduce waiting lists and to provide quality care, I would think they could implement pan-Canadian strategies. That would mean there would be good strategies across the country for education, recruitment, and retention of the nursing workforce. That would alleviate some of the issues of trying to compete from province to province for that very small and shrinking nursing workforce.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

From what you're saying, it seems Saskatchewan has focused more on the doctor shortage than it has on the nurse shortage.

[Marlene Brown]

I wouldn't comment on the doctor shortage, although I think that's an important issue as well. I just think the nursing workforce should have some similar priorities set for it.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

All right.

Mr. Nylander, I notice that you do have your colleague Mark Frison, a good Nova Scotian, living in Swift Current now. Last year, when we had our national Liberal caucus meeting in Regina, we had a panel on post-secondary education. It was a very good panel, and Mr. Frison was a strong contributor to that, as one would expect from any Nova Scotian.

I want to ask you a couple of questions. I really liked your presentation. We don't have it; I guess it may be in translation. I want to talk specifically about the issue of access, first of all, because you've addressed access.

As we've heard from witnesses in Ottawa and as we've travelled western Canada, we've heard a lot of people from colleges and universities, students' groups, and faculty associations talk about the need for a dedicated transfer. In principle, a lot of people support that, including me, but that gets into the issue of how much money there actually is for post-secondary education.

I thought you specifically zoned in on access, which I agree with. I think it's a big, big issue. You mentioned the aboriginal community, which is large, and you talked about low-income families. I would also add persons with disabilities as people who tend to be shut out of post-secondary education.

You made the statement that “full participation in post-secondary education [should be] a national pre-occupation.” I agree with that. My question to you is, would you be supportive of more direct support from the federal government to help students get into universities and colleges to upgrade their skills, or would you prefer to see the money go to the provinces and let them handle it?

[Bryan Nylander]

I don't think the importance is to identify where the money goes. The reality is that we need more money in the system. We need to see the support of the students. We do feel the potential student population is not entering into post-secondary education because of the high costs. We think there need to be changes to the student support mechanisms. The institutions across the country also need to have the appropriate resources to respond to the very significant needs of a population—and I'll speak of the aboriginal community and those who may be under-employed or underprivileged. We need vehicles to bring those into the workforce.

I don't think there are sufficient resources to support that level of activity. It is much more than.... Take my daughter, who went to university very quickly. She was supported by me, but her needs were significantly less than those of somebody who may not even have English as their primary language.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

We were in Fort McMurray yesterday—a pretty impressive sight, quite awesome—to talk about the need for skills there. Does that have an impact on your community colleges here as well?

[Bryan Nylander]

Absolutely. I think it has an impact in two regards. One is that, especially among young males, we're seeing a gravitation to the employment opportunities in Alberta, so in many regards it has reduced the population that we have available to train. Secondly, it's giving us training opportunities, but it's also increasing the number of training needs that we have in the province, especially in the skilled trades area. That's a very significant dilemma, but we're trying to address it. Resourcing is short, but so are the numbers of people.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I suspect I'm running out of time, but I want to get into a topic that you could probably spend a couple of hours discussing, and that's the juxtaposition of universities and colleges in Canada in terms of funding, research, and attention from government. Do you work closely with any of the universities in Saskatchewan, and/or what is your view in terms of the attention colleges get, versus universities?

[Bryan Nylander]

We do work closely with the universities. As regional colleges, we actually deliver university programming through a positive brokerage arrangement with our university partners. We find it interesting, though, that often we've promoted the skills training agenda at various provincial and national levels, and we say we have to put it as our priority, but when the funding comes about, it is directed at the universities. I question how much funding the universities need to satisfy the skill training issue in Canada.