Finance Committee on Oct. 17th, 2006

[Col Brian MacDonald]

Well, to take the medium airlift fleet as an example, we would have seen about two-thirds of the fleet die within the next couple of years and the rest would have followed after that. Without that critical logistical airlift capability, the rest of the forces' ability to function comes very much into question.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

One other point that I had some questions on is on function and capability. From that respect, how does this allow the armed forces to function differently from how it would have functioned?

[Col Brian MacDonald]

In the case of these particular purchases, we are seeing the restoration of a strategic and logistical lift capability for both the air force and the army and, from the naval standpoint, the provision of the joint support ships, which are the operational refuelers of naval squadrons. These are all enablers in terms of the mobility of the forces.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thanks a lot for the response.

One of the things we've been told about across the country, Ms. Hitchcock, is the whole concept of your first recommendation with respect to a dedicated cash transfer for post-secondary education. It's one that all of us are hearing, whichever side of the country we happen to be in or visited by.

One of the questions I have asked and really want to get an understanding of is that this isn't going to be an easy thing to do with the provinces. All provincial and territorial governments would like to get their federal money and then be able to expend it and allocate it accordingly. The difficult part of this—and the question I have—is how the universities, how the stakeholders, and how the municipalities are going to assist the federal government in ensuring that the provinces are a willing partner in the negotiations and in how we move forward with this. They're going to come back to you and say that the federal government is going to do all of these terrible things with the money and that their hands are going to be tied.

[Dr. Karen Hitchcock]

I think communication is at the heart of it, as are common expectations and a recognition of the needs that would be fulfilled by such a direct transfer.

The issue is that we're going to be needing many more people educated to the level of post-secondary. That's pivotal with regard to the post-secondary sector in all of the provinces. It's something that is a national issue if we are going to be competitive with other jurisdictions. We think of the numbers of dollars per student in Canada right now, compared to other jurisdictions. We have a common issue.

Expectations have to be clearly outlined. There has to be good dialogue on the part of the universities with the provinces about the reasons for such a federal transfer. That would be pivotal.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I take it by that comment that you understand the importance and the critical role that universities and stakeholders across the country are going to play in being able to achieve this end in terms of a dedicated transfer.

[Dr. Karen Hitchcock]

Very much so.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you.

I just want to ask Ms. Brunette a question regarding the Millennium Scholarship Foundation. We're getting conflicting presentations with respect to the foundation. There are those who say it has been a remarkable success, and there are those who say it has been a remarkable failure. How do we address these issues?

One of the things you've asked for is an extension of the program, and we've heard from specific organizations—I believe two—that have indicated that it's not something the federal government should pursue post-2010.

This is coming from a member of Parliament who has a university in his riding, so I would very much like to hear how we deal with the issues that have come forward.

[Suzanne Brunette]

I am going to pass this one on to my colleague.

[Judy Dyck, Past President, Director, Awards and Financial Aid, Canadian Association of Student Financial Aid Administrators]

I'm Judy Dyck, past president of CASFAA, and I can give you the specific example of Manitoba, which is where I'm from.

We had Canada student loans and Manitoba student loans before the advent of the foundation. Students who were low-income and high-need received all their assistance in the form of loans. With the coming of the foundation, we were able to reduce the debt of students in second through third year of university to a maximum of $6,000 because of the millennium bursary. Manitoba was then able to reinvest its savings from the interest subsidy and create a loan remission program for first-year students and for graduate students, so that the maximum debt that the highest-need students could receive was drastically reduced.

With the new grants that were introduced last year, Manitoba then had the flexibility of negotiating with the foundation how best to use that. They complemented the existing Canada access grants with what is called the Manitoba millennium grant, so that first-year low-income students do not have to pay any tuition. They also created something called the Manitoba millennium grant for low-income aboriginal students, who have a huge need in our province.

Without the Millennium Scholarship Foundation, we would have none of this. We would just have $14,000 of debt for high-need students. So as administrators who deal with the students on the ground, the advent of the program has just absolutely transformed the kind of support that we're able to offer to students.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you.

[Judy Dyck]

And that's our perspective.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

We'll mark that down as a for, and we'll move on to Madam Wasylycia-Leis.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you very much. Let me just carry on with this discussion.

I'm not disputing the facts, obviously, about the Millennium Scholarship Foundation. Dealing with the concern raised by so many different organizations in the field of education, though, whether they're student associations, professors, or faculties, the concern has been that we have a patchwork of programs that aren't really meeting the needs of students today in an overall, broad sense. We have the millennium scholarships. We have RESPs. We have learning bonds. We have text-book credits. But together, we don't have the right model yet, so we need to revamp the entire student grant and loan system.

Do you see any merit in looking at some of these suggestions?

[Suzanne Brunette]

I think you make a very good point, and I think this is one of the things we were hoping to bring across in this presentation, that rather than do things through the tax system I think we need to have a very comprehensive need-based program so that we are targeting rare resources to the students who most need them.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Are the days gone when we could actually put in place a program that would combine grants and loans based on need and grades so that every student in this country who wanted to go to university could access a grant and loan program? I hark back to the days when I went to university, so you're looking at more than 30 years ago, I know, but it was relatively easy to get a grant based on grades and income and relatively easy to get a low-cost loan so that we could pay it back right away. And these days you hear of students who are in dept for another 30 years. Is that beyond the reach of today's society, or could we actually achieve it?

[Suzanne Brunette]

I'd like to think we can achieve that, and I would like to think that some of the things we've talked about would help in that area.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Ken, I just wanted to ask you a question. We've had a bit of a debate about the usefulness of one of the cuts among the billion-dollar targeted cuts, about the first nations and Inuit tobacco control strategy, which has been eliminated. What's your view of it?

[Kenneth Kyle]

We're very concerned about it. We've been meeting with some of the aboriginal groups, who tell us that Health Canada has said they're going to come up with a better program, a more comprehensive program. We haven't seen it, so if that's true, if there is a better program, a more comprehensive program, we would want to look at it and that would be great. If not, I think the problem in the short term, particularly for next year, is if something isn't done quickly, the networks that are in place, the people who are working in this terribly important area, will dissipate into other areas and we'll lose the infrastructure that has been built up with the people skills, the networks, and this sort of thing. So I think if there is to be a replacement program, it has to be implemented very quickly.

One would have thought that before axing a program like this there would be something to replace it, but I think it needs to be speeded up.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you. I'd like to ask some more, but I'm going to have to go on to Wendy.

I found your presentation a very important one for our discussions. I thought in fact, and I still think, that we've made very little progress in this country in applying a sectoral approach to some of our grave problems that we're facing on the manufacturing and industrial scene. What can we do to advance a sectoral approach to our economy?

[Wendy Swedlove]

I think it's a very well-kept secret in this country and that a little more awareness of the fact that there are organizations that can help would be one way to do it. Obviously, financial support is key. We've made an investment in sector councils. I think they have, over the last ten years, proved their worth, but they don't have the kinds of resources that can make a real difference yet. The older councils, and that's some of us who've been around for ten years, have made a real dent in terms of getting a platform or a foundation of resources that industry can use. But in a sector like ours, where there are 1.6 million workers, it's very hard to get to those folk with an office of six people or ten people, or whatever. I think we've done a tremendous job with the resources we have, but if we were to do a better job it would require more resources.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

I have a last quick question to Patricia. Why should government invest in the exploration of further mine sites so that private companies can then reap the benefit?

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Ten seconds.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

No, give her twenty.

[Patricia Dillon]

The support for the cooperative geological mapping strategies program that I asked for, first of all, was approved by the mines ministers six years ago and hasn't received the funding. And it will garner matching funds from the provinces and territories and will mostly be directed in the north.

Once you've increased the geological database there, you will in fact generate more exploration activity, which would lead to discoveries and respond to our declining reserve space, which will generate tremendous revenues for the country in royalties. You just look at our Canadian diamond industry now, and that of course has been a great boost to the Canadian economy. So I think it's an investment that is going to pay back to the government.