Evidence of meeting #36 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was post-secondary.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister
Certainly, sir. We'll have that translated and distributed to all the committee members.
Thank you very much for all your presentations. They're much appreciated.
We'll continue. In this instance, we're going to do rapid-fire questions of four minutes per round. Mike Savage will begin.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Okay, let's talk fast.
The number one issue is education. Mr. Gillett and Mr. Charlebois, you both spoke about the dedicated transfer, which is a concept that I think has a lot of support and that I support in general, but I have a couple of issues with it.
You talked about the reduction in investment in post-secondary education. The federal contribution towards post-secondary investment has stayed the same over the past 10 years. The contribution through the CST has gone down. When the budget got fixed up in the late 1990s, investment in research and directly to students through millennium scholarships, learning bonds, and Canada access grants made up the difference.
My concern about the dedicated transfer is this. If you go back to the pre-1995 percentage of federal contribution, you still have the millennium scholarship out here; you still have learning bonds, which are being paid for federally; and you have all the investments in research, which have transformed Canada and reversed the brain drain. My concern is that the government won't do both things. They won't go back to the original funding of post-secondary, plus keep the billions of dollars that are being invested directly to universities and directly to students.
If the dedicated transfer meant losing the millennium scholarship, Canada access grants, and possibly nationally funded research, would you still support the dedicated transfer?
5 p.m.
Director of Advocacy, College Student Alliance
I think it's true that you've seen the shift from funding post-secondary education at the core level, which is to the institutions, to more targeted funding, which is research and the student assistance side.
Our organization supports the Canada Millennium Scholarship Foundation and supports the work that is being done to give student financial assistance to those who need it, and giving it right to the student rather than by way of the province and then down to the institution. But there needs to be a commitment from the government in funding it at both levels--at the institution, because there are institutional costs that are not being met that need to be met in terms of deferred maintenance and in terms of the quality of our programs and our facilities, and that's extremely important, but then there is also getting the student in the door. You can't just do one and not the other. I think you have to do both.
So our organization would look at having the government, as a commitment, invest in both areas--continue the investment in the individual student, but then also on the side of the institutions.
5 p.m.
Association of Colleges of Applied Arts Technology of Ontario
Obviously students see it from a different point of view than sometimes institutions do, but clearly some of the points you mentioned were purely university funds. The high-end research, we don't even get 1% of that money as colleges, so that doesn't have a great influence.
We think there is a need for the federal government to get involved, certainly working with HRSDC and others. It's very difficult to get literacy training going. Apprenticeship needs a major shot in the arm to get things going.
We've raised tuition fees in Ontario for students 150%. They are being asked to pay a lot of the burdens. The money is not being transferred to the institutions. If money is going to provincial governments, I don't think we can say we see a direct transfer of those funds to the institution where the operational effects take place.
We are not competitive in the national scene. We are not competitive in the international scene as institutions.
I think the number one issue for Canada is going to be labour, and if we don't have the labour growth, industries are not going to be able to staff their positions.
5 p.m.
Bloc
Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My question goes to Mr. Toft.
At the end of your document, you mention social enterprises, businesses that, in many cases, employ people with physical or mental disabilities. These businesses don’t have the same economic viability as businesses that employ people without disabilities.
Do have any idea of the impact of the 39 million dollar cutbacks announced by the federal government under social economics. We won’t be able to create the type of businesses that you want, that is to say businesses that allow people who have developmental disabilities to become autonomous by having a job and some revenue.
5:05 p.m.
Secretary, Families Matter Co-operative Inc.
No, I haven't, but I'm sure there will be lots of comments that these cuts you're talking about are not the way to go, that we need more investment into people who are able to work but are not given the chance to work. We need investment in the businesses that employ them. Our co-op in Ottawa is investigating two or three different social enterprises that we can bring in from models in Toronto and in other parts of the province. These will help people to work, who can work, and thus contribute to society and to their own self-esteem.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Colby, one of your recommendations was to abolish mandatory retirement at 65 years of age. In Quebec, this measure has been abolished since at least the early 80s. Were you referring to certain provinces in particular or to the federal government when you were talking about abolishing this measure?
5:05 p.m.
Chair, Tax and Fiscal Policy Committee, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada
CGA-Canada produced a report last year on an aging population and a lot of the problems that this country will face as a result of that. One of the elements of that report was that we have some very knowledgeable, skilled people in the workforce now who will be needed to help train the too-small labour population that's coming up. Yes, there are still areas that have mandatory retirement at 65. By forcing some of those very skilled people to retire at that age, we will likely run into difficulty transferring that knowledge and skill to the upcoming labour force.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC
That is extremely discriminatory. You can be 65 years old and still be in good shape and want to work.
Again in your written submissions, you mention personal income tax reduction. You compare the combined federal and provincial tax rates and taxes in the United States. However, you fail to mention what we get in return. It’s true that on the average, Canadians pay more taxes. On the other hand, we have more services. For example, health insurance has become an element...
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister
Thank you, Sir. We shall continue.
Monsieur Dykstra, four minutes.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm sorry, gentlemen, but this is rapid-fire. If you can get back as quickly as possible, we can get some more questions in.
My first question is actually to Mr. Toft. I wonder if you could comment. In one of your recommendations you speak about the social enterprise portals, where enterprise, business, and government could cooperate to develop mutual purchasing enterprises, and you talked about tax incentives. Could you give me a couple of examples of what you might recommend?
5:05 p.m.
Secretary, Families Matter Co-operative Inc.
I'm not a tax expert, I'm a parent. I know that social portals exist in Vancouver and in other places where purchasing does take place in the partnership between business, government and social enterprises. I know there are developments taking place in Ottawa, which I'm interested in, of another social portal. So no, I cannot give you a recommendation on taxation, but it would help, I'm sure.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
Okay, great.
To Mr. Gillett, on the point you made about investment in infrastructure, I wonder if you could comment on the dedication we've made with respect to the $1 billion and how you think that will be beneficial over the next couple of years.
5:05 p.m.
Association of Colleges of Applied Arts Technology of Ontario
Our problem right now is that we haven't seen the details on where that $1 billion is going to flow, remembering that every time you give money to a provincial government there are machinations that go on and we have difficulty trying to figure out where the money went in the first place. Right now in Ontario, for colleges, all capital has been frozen for two years, so we don't know if we're going to see any of that. In Ontario, we're waiting very much for the labour market development agreement to have some funds forwarded, and there's over $300 million that seems to be stalled again.
So for a time...I'll just give you one example. We have 30,000 applications for our college to take 6,500. There are people who want to go to post-secondary; they can't get in because of infrastructure and lack of access. So we don't know where that money has gone.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
So presently in Ontario, what you're saying is that the provincial government is holding up its expenditures on infrastructure.
5:10 p.m.
Association of Colleges of Applied Arts Technology of Ontario
For colleges specifically, yes.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
Okay, so we need to work even that much harder, from a federal perspective, to drive this $1 billion through the process.
5:10 p.m.
Association of Colleges of Applied Arts Technology of Ontario
I think we all need to come together for the good of the students who want to get the education, and find a way to make it work.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
Good.
Mr. Colby, one of the points you made was to develop pension reform options for consideration by Parliament. Do you have an example or two of that?
5:10 p.m.
Chair, Tax and Fiscal Policy Committee, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada
Actuarial valuations--
5:10 p.m.
Chair, Tax and Fiscal Policy Committee, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada
It's the process by which you determine what level of contribution is going to be necessary at present in order to provide benefits in the future. We don't know how well that is being conducted. It perhaps should be conducted by an independent board that is separate from the government, where we're talking about Canada Pension Plan.
But again, there are some real dangers within the pension industry. Companies that are funding their own pensions are often dipping into these funds for working capital reasons due to other factors, and then the money is not there to pay the pensions.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
Tyler, I have just a quick question.
We've had lots of presentations by student groups. As you know, I have a university in my riding, and there is always a concern that we're focused. Another youth association came in to claim that the millennium scholarship program is fraught with problems. Your comments, please