Finance Committee on Oct. 25th, 2006

[Nathalie Brisseau]

If I may, I don't like the word “clientele”. This is a diversified population.

A few years ago, they were thought of as persons—mostly men—of a certain age who had alcohol problems. That's how they were viewed. Currently, this concerns increasing numbers of youths, minors, runaways, young adults and women.

Qualitative research is being done right now in Quebec City. What leads these women to exclusion and to life in the streets? This also affects certain families that experience impoverishment, a loss of housing, a loss of social network and so on. These people don't have housing or a social network and often have trouble getting access to public services. Their last safety net is often the community sector, which opens its doors more readily.

These are also people who have problems related to homelessness. This isn't just a problem of living on the street; it's quite complex. These people have physical and mental health problems that are in addition or are the origin of their homelessness problem. We see dependence problems that were there first or that appear, quite frequently among young people, when they smoke on the street. If they aren't drug addicts, they ultimately become drug addicts because they get noticed.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Let's talk about the FRAPRU program. We're talking about $2 billion a year over 10 years. If I do the multiplication, that's $20 billion in 10 years.

How much does a social housing unit cost for one person?

[Nicolas Lefebvre Legault]

Construction costs approximately $100,000.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

That means that it's $200,000...

[Nicolas Lefebvre Legault]

It doesn't cost the Government of Canada $100,000. That amount is generally allocated as follows: 40% to the Government of Canada, 30% to the Government of Quebec, 10% to the municipality and another $100,000 for the mortgage, paid by the cooperative, the NPO or the low-cost housing organization.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

That's good. How many social housing units are lacking here in Quebec City?

[Nicolas Lefebvre Legault]

How many are lacking in Quebec City itself? The waiting list for low-cost housing contains 3,000 names. I believe that 18,000 households, according to Government of Canada standards, could have access to social housing. We're not saying that 18,000 are needed, but...

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

You're just talking about Quebec City.

[Nicolas Lefebvre Legault]

Yes, I'm talking about Quebec City, the new Quebec City, the new municipality. If we look at the figures from the last census, nearly 40% of rental households spend more than 30% of their income on housing, and nearly 22% spend more than 50% of their income on housing-related expenses. That's a lot of people. There's currently one major problem. For a few years now, social housing has been developed in cooperatives, or NPOs, but no low-cost housing program. There are specific needs for low-cost housing. The $2 billion from the federal government would make it possible to fund a low-cost housing program.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Would it be simpler to pay a bonus rather than build a new building? Allow me to explain. If we offered a housing bonus, that would make it possible to have 2,000 or 3,000 units quickly. Would that be feasible?

[Nicolas Lefebvre Legault]

No, because, on the one hand, it's more costly to pay a bonus. Curiously, if you think of a long period of time, it costs less to fund a low-cost housing program than to give a person a bonus, given the nature of the market.

On the other hand, if you assist a person directly, when that person improves his circumstances, nothing is left for the community. If we build a social housing unit, a unit remains that could help another person. The investment is more cost-efficient in that sense as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Merci beaucoup, monsieur.

We'll continue on avec monsieur Savage, quatre minutes.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Chair. I'm going to ask my questions in English.

I ask for your understanding and use the translation if it's necessary.

Monsieur Pigeon, you say in your brief--and this is new to me--that the provincial government now guarantees the complete refund of fees, which are the indirect costs, for research grants and contracts provided by the departments and agencies that report to this order of government. Who are they?

[Michel Pigeon]

There was some noise, and you're going too quickly.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Sorry, I said that the provincial government guarantees the complete refund of indirect costs.

[Michel Pigeon]

Yes, the guarantee is on the funding the government gives to universities for research. Before, the system was that only the provincial government paid indirect costs. It paid a certain amount on all grants, either federal or provincial. It eventually decided to fund only its own indirect costs—50% for social sciences and 65% for hard science. It withdrew from the federal government's indirect costs and decided to let the federal government fund its own costs.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Okay, I understand that.

Last year, the Liberal government introduced indirect costs at 40% in the economic update, and it didn't pass the House of Commons. At that time we had a lot of direct investments for students. It didn't pass the House of Commons, but it was brought in. So we recognize the need for the 40%, and I think we need to get to it.

When we did this, a lot of people came to see me from the various foundations concerned with heart, stroke, and cancer. They said paying the indirect costs made it harder to attract good research. Do you have any thoughts on this? Should they be included as well?

[Michel Pigeon]

It's relatively simple: the indirect costs exist, and if nobody pays, then it comes out of the basic funding of universities. The Université Laval has a budget of $430 million and funding of close to a quarter billion dollars for research. The indirect costs represent about $60 million, but we only get $30 million from all sources. So out of the $430 million of our basic budget, $30 million goes to the indirect costs of research. Somebody, somehow, has to pay it. Foundations could ask the provincial government to pay. The provincial government has established a list of various institutions and foundations. For example, it pays for cancer research.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

It doesn't pay for the research that's not done in universities, though, and that's where the non-profit organizations are caught.

We've heard a few submissions from people about the Millennium Scholarship Foundation. Tuitions in Quebec are a lot lower than they are, for example, in Nova Scotia, where I come from, where the average tuition is about $6,000 to $6,500. Do you have a view on how the Millennium Scholarship Foundation is working?

[Michel Pigeon]

What I know is that the money goes to the provincial government, which recycles part of it to the universities and part to the students through grants. That's how it's done in Quebec. The money is being used for education. But it's split: part goes to bursaries and loans from the provincial government and a part goes directly to the basic university budget.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Ms. Ablonczy, the floor is yours.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank all of you for your good presentations. I always learn something.

Housing is a big issue in Canada. I notice we have a number of presentations on it. You talked about an increasing number of issues with the homeless—substance abuse, mental health problems. I know that housing alone is not the whole answer for these individuals. I wonder if you could tell us a little more about programs that might be of help to people with these difficulties.

[Nathalie Brisseau]

Stable housing is the objective for assisting people who are homeless or in the processing of becoming homeless.

However, some people who are having major difficulties and are in considerable distress wouldn't be prepared to go into social housing, even if units were available or for resale. A connection has to be made with these people in the street. They have to be led to integration or reintegration centres and to work on developing life plans. These people have experienced a number of major break-ups in their lives and have dropped out as a result.

When you're in a survival situation, you give up. Aid services are necessary. Like the fight against poverty, the housing issue is a structural factor in solving the homelessness problem.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

We appreciate that. You'll be happy to know that the minister keeps affirming that SCPI is not going to be cut. The funding will continue, and in fact, just yesterday, again, in the House, she affirmed this. So I'm not quite sure why everyone is so anxious about it. The minister herself keeps saying she doesn't know what this is all about, because the funding won't be cut. So I hope that reassures you somewhat.

Mr. Pigeon, we've had a number of groups, of course, asking for increases in post-secondary spending. What would you spend it on, if you did have more money? What's on the top of your wish list ?

[Michel Pigeon]

At the top of my list is faculty. I've said it very clearly. The number of staff, the number of professors in our Canadian and Quebec universities, has dropped in recent years, and the number of students has increased. So if we want to have better education, better quality, and also more research, we need to have more professors. I would say that at least the first 50% of what I would get would go directly to that.

Now I could discuss all the rest, and you can't imagine the needs, but the first and most pressing need is to hire people.