It doesn't cost more money; it gives more accessibility.
Evidence of meeting #43 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.
Evidence of meeting #43 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.
3:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Association of Canadian Community Colleges
It doesn't cost more money; it gives more accessibility.
3:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister
A'accord. I have to be able to defend this to my friends in Manitoba.
3:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Association of Canadian Community Colleges
Well, no problem. Call me. I'll go with you!
3:20 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
3:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister
I will save time and not try this in French.
I am the son of a farmer, the grandson, the great-grandson, the great-great-grandson of farmers, as are many of the members of your association. We've been in the family business a long time. It concerns me, the
intergenerational challenge in the context of the transfer of farm operation and management to the next generation. There are a lot of obstacles.
What measures do you recommend for addressing those obstacles? More specifically, you proposed in your report that the capital gains deduction be increased by $500,000 to $1 million. What role would the capital gains deduction play in that respect?
3:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Union des producteurs agricoles du Québec
We proposed that measure in the perspective of promoting the intergenerational transfer of farm businesses. In agriculture, as a result of the money invested and income generated by that invested money, when the business has to be transferred from one generation to the next, the young farmers coming up are asked for too much money, because, in many cases, the person who is retiring has set aside little money. In other words, throughout his career, the farmer, or the producer, has saved little money. He has provided for a retirement pension, but it's often in his farm business.
What do you do when you transfer those businesses? What can the producer do when he transfers the business to his son, so that he can—and this is where the tax measure comes in—keep what retirement fund remains for him, without having to sell his farm business at a higher price to the next generation to enable him to have a good retirement?
That's where the taxation question comes into play, where the producer has to pay tax on the sale of his business, which in fact represents a slightly over-valued productive asset relative to the income it generates.
3:20 p.m.
Conservative
3:25 p.m.
Vice-President, Union des producteurs agricoles du Québec
Since the measure was put in place, it hasn't been increased, and the value of farm businesses today is in the order of $1 million.
3:25 p.m.
Vice-President, Union des producteurs agricoles du Québec
It's from $900,000 to $1 million.
3:25 p.m.
Vice-President, Union des producteurs agricoles du Québec
...in order to manage to have an income. There's no adjustment for the increase in property values.
3:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister
Okay.
I declared my bias, so I can tell you now I think that's a great idea.
We move on to Monsieur Pacetti.
You have five minutes, sir.
3:25 p.m.
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to all of you for coming. This is interesting. We've been hearing testimony for a number of days now. We've been travelling for three days. Two weeks ago, we were in Western Canada. So we've received a lot of briefs and heard a lot of presentations. It's always interesting to be in a different place.
Mr. Boucher, I believe the Chair has already asked you what the difference is between a Cegep and a college.
In the past—correct me if I'm wrong—the Canadian government has never allocated any funding to the Cegeps. It only grants financial assistance for postsecondary education, and the Cegeps have never been affected because of that. Am I mistaken?
3:25 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Fédération des cégeps
In the document to which your colleague referred, it is stated that the Quebec colleges do not receive federal funding, unlike the universities, which receive funding through the funding research councils. That's what we meant, simply.
Of course, we receive money from the federal government through transfers, through the Consolidated Fund, but, in the table, we wanted to illustrate the fact that, unlike the universities, the colleges are barely starting to develop their research mission. So, ultimately, we do not receive any federal funding from the funding councils, whether it be the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council or the Humanities and Social Sciences Research Council or what have you, hence the zero shown in the table.
3:25 p.m.
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Even if we transfer more money to postsecondary education, the situation won't change. In the briefs that we've received, representatives of the colleges asked us to set aside a little money for research, innovation and training. I don't think that's going to help you.
If we increase the amount for postsecondary education—you've asked that that be unconditional—that won't guarantee that the Cegeps receive more money.
3:25 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Fédération des cégeps
That's somewhat what I was saying earlier, that is to say that, unlike what's going on elsewhere in the country, the Government of Quebec, historically, has always allocated the federal transfers to funding for colleges and universities. That money has never been diverted to build roads or other things.
3:25 p.m.
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
That's the problem. When we make transfers for social programs, we don't even know what amounts will be allocated to the social programs and to postsecondary education. So even if you ask for the amounts to be increased, we don't really know where the money goes.
First, the two amounts should be separated, and then you should request an increase. We're not saying that the provincial governments don't invest in postsecondary education. The problem is that we don't know whether the provinces are going to keep their commitments and contribute to them to the same degree.
3:25 p.m.
Executive Director, Association of Canadian Community Colleges
So we at the Association of Canadian Community Colleges are proposing that a postsecondary education transfer fund be established that is targeted for postsecondary education and handed over to the provinces.
Right now, we receive a portion of the money because, traditionally, the...
3:25 p.m.
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
The recommendations should be clear. In some cases, if it's unconditional, it seems to protect or not to protect. I think that ultimately it's not clear, that it's not transparent. I think that we expect of a number of groups that it be transparent, that the amounts be targeted for...
3:25 p.m.
Executive Director, Association of Canadian Community Colleges
The difficulties we encounter don't stem from the fact that we're not receiving our share of the money; they stem from the fact that there were cuts in 1992, 1993 and 1994. That's the difference.
3:25 p.m.
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Okay. I'm getting it. Perhaps I'll put my question to Ms. Munroe-Blum.
We were in Portage la Prairie, and it was the University of.... I don't think he's the principal, Lloyd Axworthy, but he was the one who made the presentation.
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
He was there originally when the negotiations were going on. Apparently, from what he told us, when the amounts were reduced—if you want to call it that—for post-secondary, the federal government didn't really reduce the amounts; they put them into these research councils and the foundations, because the university requested direct money. If you put all the totals together, if you add all the amounts together in post-secondary, you'll see there hasn't been a decrease; there's actually been an increase. That's because the universities had requested money directly.
Are you aware of that?
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister
That was a good presentation, sir.
The next speaker will be Mr. Del Mastro. You have five minutes, sir.
