Finance Committee on March 20th, 2007

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I don't think I have much time left, so I'll be quick with my last question.

To Mr. Thrasher or Mr. Watson, what about discussions with our U.S. counterparts? Have you had a chance to find out what our U.S. counterparts think of this, or how they would react?

[Bill Trasher]

They have nothing to do with it. The 85%, while it was in the fourth protocol, was the maximum they could tax in Canada for Canadian recipients of U.S. social security. But we could reduce that back to zero if we wanted to.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you, Mr. Dykstra.

Mr. Masse, welcome to the committee. Over to you now.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the committee for having me here.

I want to start by reading a quote from one of the debates on Bill C-265, a bill similar to this one proposed: If the government wanted to let justice happen, it could accept the passage of this bill at all three stages here tonight and send it over to the Senate for ratification. This does not need to be held up for any prospective election. This could be passed and, indeed, the finance minister could have done right by people like Olive Smith. Years ago he could have done right by them in the budget. In fact, and I do not think I am going out on a limb here, let me say that the Conservative Party would be quite happy to accept an amendment to the budget implementation act to give effect to Bill C-265.

Now, I don't know what the problem is with regard to this, but we have $66 million basically holding up 100,000 people in terms of this particular effect that it would have.

Mr. Thrasher, I'd like you to give testimony to the committee on how this affected people in your circle, in your life, when the rules were changed from underneath their feet. What did it do to individuals? As we've discussed, some people aren't even here anymore. That's a significant problem. All that money—money that was once supposed to go to individuals, who planned their lives on it, because the rules were a certain way—has been taken from them.

What happened to the people in your circle, Mr. Thrasher? What did they experience?

[Bill Trasher]

One of the first phone calls I got when people found I was involved in this was from a lady in Quebec. She had worked all her life in the United States and for the U.S. consulate. She was 85 years old. She had just broken her $1,000 pair of glasses; she was nearly blind. She received this notice that tax on her social security was going to be withheld, by 25.5%.

She was absolutely desperate. She was forced to move. She moved into an apartment that wasn't really up to par with her needs, so she had some renovations done. While this was going on, she tripped on something and broke a leg. She wound up in a hospital. She had a heart attack, and while she was recovering from the heart attack her sister came in and said, you know, your ceiling fell down.

This is an unusual case, but there are so many situations when people are of that age—They just can't handle that sort of stuff. To change the rules when people are being affected like that is really immoral. It should never happen.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

I'd like to add a comment to this discussion too, for the benefit of this committee. Hill and Knowlton aren't being employed to lobby members of Parliament: you've heard the type of people who have been involved in this particular issue. It does fall to the committee, though, to be the ones who hear their particular call for help right now. You have the power to do something about it. There are no high-priced campaigns being waged on their behalf. They don't have slick lawyers and lobbyists working for them. This is your chance to hear their voice and do something about it.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, the quote I read was from the minister of multiculturalism and Canadian identity; it was on April 14, 2005. What's troubling, though--and I think needs to be clarified--is that there seems to be the perception that it's Americans who are going to be receiving this. But the fact of the matter is that it affects many Canadians, and not just in Windsor, Ontario; they actually come from New Brunswick and other places across the country—

Can you describe the types of people they are? These are working-class Canadians who actually contributed to the country by receiving a wage and bringing it back into Canada. Can you tell us a little bit about those individuals?

[Bill Trasher]

They're basically ordinary people. In Windsor, of course, we're right next to Detroit, so you have a large workforce of maybe 6,000 people who run across the border every day. They're clerks, they work in lawyers' offices, they work at some of the big department stores—things like that. Sure, there are engineers and nurses and so on, but these are just ordinary people. They're really not people looking for social security when they retire. I mean, they are people who are looking for social security; they're not the kind of people who can do without social security. They're just ordinary people, just as I'm an ordinary person. They expect that when you retire, you'd never have the rules changed on you after you retire. In the United States, apparently, there was something Ronald Reagan had done where he gave 30 years' notice as to different changes that were going to be made to U.S. social security.

They're ordinary people, just like you and me and most people around here; they're just trying to get along in life and make things work for their families.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Is there any more time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

I'm sorry, Mr. Masse.

Thank you all for your presentations today. Unfortunately our time for discussion has elapsed, but we will continue this discussion. Thank you again for being here, Mr. Watson, Mr. Thrasher, and Mr. Gleberzon.

We are adjourned.