Evidence of meeting #83 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was barbados.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ben Arrindell  Barbados Private Sector Association
Erin Weir  Economist, Canadian Labour Congress
Brigitte Alepin  Chartered Accountant, Fiscalist, As an Individual
André Lareau  Professor, Laval University
Walid Hejazi  Professor, International School of Business, Rotman School of Business, University of Toronto
Brian Ernewein  General Director, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Lawrence Purdy  Senior Chief, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

1:15 p.m.

General Director, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Brian Ernewein

In certain cases--an example being our tax shelter reporting requirements--we have an obligation on taxpayers to identify aggressive tax planning structures, or structures they're marketing to the public as producing significant tax benefits.

I don't know that disclosure or non-disclosure has been an issue with the sorts of double-dips we're talking about. They're generally large firms because they're multinational in scope. They are subject perhaps to routine audits by CRA, or certainly more frequent audits than smaller enterprises. So there isn't a general rule to disclose that you're engaging in this sort of transaction, but I don't think that presents a problem. We are able--and the Canada Revenue Agency in particular is able--to determine when these are being done.

1:15 p.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Earlier, we discussed subsection (11.2) of section 5907 of the Income Tax Regulations. Under the Access to Information Act, the Bloc Québécois obtained an account of the exchange of information among the high officials of the finance department. The officials explained that this subsection was specifically meant to allow Canadian companies to transfer tax-free money to companies in Barbados.

Do you agree that this was the intention of the section?

1:15 p.m.

General Director, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Brian Ernewein

No, I can't. I don't believe that was the intention of the regulation.

Prior to 1994, we did have a rule in our regulations that attempted to say that treaty countries, countries with which Canada had a tax treaty, qualified for exempt surplus treatment. That listing procedure was not very effective. At the time of its change in 1994, we had about ten countries on the list with which we did not have tax treaties. We might have had negotiations started with them, but we did not have tax treaties in effect, and I think we were getting behind so that there were about ten new countries with which we did have tax treaties that weren't on the list.

So trying to do a better job of it, and a more effective job of it, we changed the regulation to say that it had to be a country with which we have a tax treaty. We weren't going to run through a list. We were going to have as a condition that it had to be a country with which you had a tax treaty and the particular company in question had to be resident in that country, for purposes of the treaty. It was intended to, as I say, clean up our listing requirement. After the regulation was issued in draft form in the budget, we received some questions from a couple of tax firms, asking whether or not this was intended to affect any of our existing treaties, because you could read those treaties as perhaps saying that if a company weren't resident for all purposes, or weren't entitled to treaty benefits in all cases, that perhaps the regulation as drafted could have application to it.

Our answer was that it did not, and we issued letters—I think those are what you're referring to—to a number of people in the tax community who had written to ask us about this, saying that wasn't the intention of the regulation. The regulation was revised and it was passed to reflect its original intentions.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Thank you very much, sir.

Just for clarification, Mr. Ernewein, a previous panel testified something to the effect, I think, that there had been no change in the Barbadian tax structures since the signing of a tax treaty with that country. When was the tax treaty with Barbados signed?

1:20 p.m.

General Director, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Brian Ernewein

I think it was in 1980.

1:20 p.m.

A voice

I think it was 1972 or 1973.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Is the intention when we sign tax treaties, setting aside the need for transparency and disclosure and openness in the relationship, that we try to sign treaties with countries that have somewhat comparable levels of taxation? Or does that enter into the criteria when we sign tax treaties?

1:20 p.m.

General Director, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Brian Ernewein

I think it does enter into the consideration that goes into determining whether to have tax treaty negotiations and seek to get a tax treaty, because in the absence of tax in the other jurisdiction, one of the objectives of a tax treaty--to eliminate the risk of double taxation, or to reduce, at least, the risk of double taxation--doesn't have that much traction.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

So the answer is yes, we try to consider the level of taxation as one of the factors when we're signing a tax treaty--is that correct?

1:20 p.m.

General Director, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Brian Ernewein

As one of the factors, yes.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

That being said, we've got some contradictory information coming to our committee from different witnesses as to the changes or lack of changes in tax structures in Barbados. Some evidence says there was a significant increase in the use of Barbadian—what's the correct phrase—Barbadian corporations.

1:20 p.m.

General Director, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Brian Ernewein

Probably you're referring to international business corporations, IBCs.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

A major increase in the use of IBCs in Barbados in the late nineties in particular.... Was there, or was there not, a change within Barbados in terms of its tax policies that would lead to or contribute to the increased use of the IBCs?

1:20 p.m.

General Director, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Brian Ernewein

You'll be expecting I'm always saying I can't give you a straight answer. The international business corporations were in place when we negotiated the treaty with Barbados in 1980. A reference is explicitly made to them in that treaty.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Why the increased use? Why is Barbados now third, I think, in offshore Canadian investment after the U.S. and the U.K.? Why is Barbados all of a sudden becoming so incredibly popular for foreign investment?

1:20 p.m.

General Director, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Brian Ernewein

Without wanting to convey an impression I'm an authority on all of the factors that went into this, I think there are at least two things that could have borne upon it. One is that there's just greater foreign investment by Canadian companies and other companies throughout the world. I think the increase in investment in countries like Barbados that we have observed is also found largely in the U.S. and the U.K.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

There's been more foreign investment, but exponentially so in the case of Barbados. Okay. What's the second reason?

1:20 p.m.

General Director, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Brian Ernewein

I've forgotten.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

What's the special appeal? My friends from the Barbados back there will want you to tell us about the special appeal of the Barbados to Canadian and other foreign investors.

1:20 p.m.

General Director, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Brian Ernewein

I'm sorry, Brian, but we were diverted and I've forgotten the other point.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

What would a Canadian company that uses Barbados as a conduit pay if they're an IBC? What would they pay in corporate tax?

1:20 p.m.

General Director, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Brian Ernewein

It has been some time since I checked, but I believe the rate was between 1.25% and 2.5%.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Perhaps that has something to do with it.

1:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

1:20 p.m.

General Director, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Brian Ernewein

But, sir, just to be fair to our colleagues and friends from Barbados, I'm not sure if that rate has changed in the time since.