Evidence of meeting #84 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-52.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Brian Ernewein  General Director, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

I appreciate that apparently you're at least dealing with the double-dipping portion of interest deductibility. However, your plan doesn't come into effect for five years, and you're going to study the rest of it. So I fail to see how that's a guarantee to Canadians that you're really closing this corporate loophole.

Furthermore, with respect to the big issue that we've been dealing with now for ten years, the Barbados tax haven, you talked a good line in opposition. The Barbados tax haven is still wide open. I can understand why the Liberals, in terms of the Canada Steamship Lines issue, kept it open, but I don't understand why you've kept it open. Will it ever be closed under your leadership?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Flaherty Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON

We're going to deal with the double-dipping issue, which we made clear, because it's not fair to other Canadian taxpayers, not only with respect to tax havens, but also with respect to the so-called tower structure that is used as another way of effectively making one investment and deducting it twice for tax purposes, which is not fair.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

But why can't you close the Barbados tax haven, like other tax havens have been closed over the years?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Flaherty Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON

What I also announced in my statement on Monday is that we will have a committee of experts look at this report on an interim basis, with respect to all kinds of tax avoidance loopholes and international business tax, before the next budget, and then before budget 2009 on a final report basis. So there's more to be done.

I assure you that the double interest deduction legislation will be introduced in the fall. It will be part of the fall budget bill. Yes, it will take effect some years out, five years out, but we've had this deduction in Canada for more than 20 years. For 13 years, the previous government did nothing about it.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

I'm not quite sure why it couldn't be done a little sooner than five years.

The Liberals make a spurious connection between the question of interest deductibility and the sell-off of our Canadian companies. I don't believe there's a connection between those two. I think we have a very serious issue around the loss of our own Canadian companies to multinationals. We're losing some of the jewels in our industrial manufacturing sector.

I want to know specifically if you have a plan to actually deal with this loss of Canadian companies, and if it's more than simply the study you announced on Monday.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Flaherty Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON

We announced in the budget that there would be a panel appointed and reporting to the Minister of Industry on competitiveness. That was what was referred to the other day in the House.

The minister intends to go ahead and do that quite soon. Of course this will also include, as part of the competiveness issue, the issue of so-called hollowing out, with respect to which there are many differing opinions and many different statistics. The evidence looks like Canadians are actually acquiring more abroad than is being acquired within Canada.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Massimo Pacetti

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

Mr. Dykstra, you have another six minutes, and then we're going to start another round with Monsieur Thibault.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to let you know that the lunch was excellent today with the delegation from Pakistan. You pushed hard to have a lot of us there; it's unfortunate that you couldn't make it.

Minister, thank you for coming to see us here at committee.

I'm anxiously awaiting your comments, and obviously the implementation of Bill C-52. While you may be a little closer to this age than I am, I certainly wanted to inquire, get your thoughts, and give you the opportunity to speak to the increase in the RSP age limit from 69 to 71, if you wouldn't mind commenting on that.

May 16th, 2007 / 4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Flaherty Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON

In our current tax system, which will be changed by Bill C-52, taxpayers are generally required to convert their RRSPs to RRIFs, registered retirement income funds, and to stop contributing to their RRSPs by the end of the year in which they turn 69. Similarly, registered pension plan payments must generally begin by the end of the year in which the pension plan member turns 69.

As we know, many older Canadians are well and in good health and want to continue working and saving. Under the proposed changes we are increasing the age limit for maturing registered pension plans and RRSPs to 71 from 69. This will increase work and savings incentives for older Canadians, and this will be achieved by permitting additional RRSP contributions and accrual of pension benefits and not requiring any drawdown of tax-deferred savings at ages 70 and 71.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Thank you.

As you know, there's certainly a lot of talk about huge issues and the implications of broader tax base relief across the country, but I think what a lot of Canadians would like to know is what is the direct impact the budget is going to have on them specifically. There are a lot of small-business men and women who are in the trucking industry from one side of this country to the other, and I know one of the benefits in this budget is the meal expense relief for truck drivers. I thought certainly we can talk about the big issues, but those that hit the wall directly are the ones that have a strong impact on small-business folks in this country.

Could you comment on that?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Flaherty Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON

As the member for St. Catharines knows, this is an issue with respect to meal expense deductions that truckers across Canada had raised, and I sure heard about it from lots of members of our Conservative caucus here. There was a pretty strong feeling among truckers that they were not getting the same tax break as other people do sometimes in their meal expense deductions. So we addressed that. It should help also with the shortage of truck drivers. There is quite a significant shortage of truck drivers in Canada, and that has an economic consequence for our economy, since so many of the goods that are moved across the country move with our truckers, including our trade with the United States to the south.

According to a study conducted by the Canadian Trucking Human Resources Council, the trucking industry currently needs some 38,000 new drivers annually. So this tax measure to increase to 80% from 50% the share of meal expenses that long-haul truck drivers can deduct for tax purposes should help make that job more lucrative and more attractive to more people. We need more people getting into the trucking business. It applies to both truck drivers who are employees and long-haul truck drivers who are self-employed.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Thank you.

One of the other areas of investment that is in this budget is with respect to the Canadian Coast Guard. It has been a lot of years since investments have been made in our coast guard, at least from a security perspective, around the country and in our Great Lakes and obviously in our oceans. We're investing $324 million to build six new ships over the next number of years. I wondered if either you or your officials could comment on the need, the necessity, of making that investment.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Flaherty Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON

Certainly one of the major considerations is the commitment that our government has and our Prime Minister has to preserving and protecting our sovereignty in the Arctic. We need to be able to be a presence in the Arctic and we need to have the ships that can operate in that part of Canada, with the extreme conditions that are often found there.

So this is all part of our rebuilding of the Canadian security network and being in a position to actually do something to have a Canadian presence that respects the sovereignty of Canada in the Arctic.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

I guess the other benefit too is having those ships built here in Canada and making sure that also assists in the investment in our economy. So I greatly appreciate it.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Flaherty Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON

I know the member for St. Catharines has a strong interest in shipbuilding.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

For very good reasons, sir, as you know.

The other extension that's in this budget is the whole aspect of the gas fund transfer and the need and the request that municipalities across this country have made for their ability to reach out and see further investment dollars, see further dollars to ensure that they can supply the needs within their municipalities. Extending the transfer from 2013 to 2014 is significant. Perhaps you could just comment on that quickly.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Flaherty Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON

We extended the transfer of the tax—

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Massimo Pacetti

In ten seconds, Mr. Flaherty, please.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Flaherty Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON

Done?

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Massimo Pacetti

Now we're done. Thank you.

Monsieur Thibault.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

Thank you, Minister, for appearing.

I don't think you could have a budget that spends as much money as you have here and not get a few things right. So I will point out that there are some things that are right.

I did like the capital gains exemption in the fisheries. It met the commitment that we had made in our electoral platform. Congratulations for doing it. But I have to tell you, our fisheries minister went one up on you, in that he made a licensing announcement a couple of weeks ago that has completely eliminated the capital gains itself, bringing the licence value down about $300,000 each. I agree with what he's trying to do. Everybody agrees with that. But making the announcement without having it fleshed out creates some anxiety in the industry and has forced down prices.

That's what I think your party did with income trust, where you made a commitment, you made a promise during the election, and then you broke that promise. You end up in a situation where people lose a lot of money on capital value and you have a loss of Canadian assets. We had the governor of the bank tell us that it was an ideal vehicle for certain sectors, that there were problems within the sector. I think everybody agrees with that.

It's the same thing on interest deductibility. Everybody agrees that where there is abuse of foreign low-tax jurisdiction, that has to be cleaned up. But you made the announcement initially on all the interest for investments in foreign markets for our Canadian corporations, which was disadvantaging them. A big fear was put into corporate Canada, into confidence, internationally and in our country, without having it fleshed out.

Since then, you flip-flopped on that issue. You brought it back to a minute point of interest deductibility on the question of double-dipping. You're talking now about towering, and I look forward to seeing how that plays out and how that works out, to make sure that we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, that we do stop the abuses that are there. But you said you would have that in place by 2012, and you further said that the savings to the Canadian treasury would go to lower corporate tax rates.

Your expert, your Mr. Ernewein, testified that the analysis hasn't been done. There's no evidence that it will bring any increase in revenue to the treasury, and some tax experts suggest that it might reduce the revenue. So I would have to surmise that you're going to increase their corporate taxes, in that case, to balance it out.

But I want to bring you to the point that's the most egregious to me, and that's the Atlantic accord. You weren't in the House at the time, but your colleagues supported the Atlantic accord in the House, supported it to the point that they asked for the budget bill to be split so that they could vote against the budget but support the accord. The accord went through. It's a very good tool for Nova Scotia and Newfoundland, a very good tool. What the accord says is that the revenue from gases, from these non-renewable resources, would be above and beyond any other program of government, not instead of. You have turned it into an “instead of”, where the Province of Nova Scotia, my province, although you've extended it for one year, has to decide if they're going to keep operating under the Atlantic accord, the Canada-Nova Scotia accord, or whether they're going to accept the ready money under the new equalization formula, which, by the way, the Atlantic provinces all agree has a cap.

In your ongoing negotiations with the province, will you withdraw your position? Will you honour the Government of Canada's commitment to the Province of Nova Scotia and respect the full intent of the accord?

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Flaherty Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON

You raised a number of issues. Let me respond to the last one right away.

We are keeping our commitment to honour the Atlantic accords. That is clear. The Province of Nova Scotia and the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador can have the same accord today as they had six months ago, as they had two years ago. That's the accord. They can have it for the entire term of the accord.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

They have to choose it over the new equalization formula.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Flaherty Conservative Whitby—Oshawa, ON

The option is there to continue with the Atlantic accord. So to say that the Atlantic accord is not available is simply not accurate.

On the other issues that you asked me—

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS

The intent of the accord was not an “instead of”. It was not the Atlantic accord or the new equalization. It was above and beyond any other program of the federal government. It was meant to help Nova Scotia and Newfoundland reduce their debt, use the money from their non-renewable resources to invest in their province. The Province of Nova Scotia, with their first cheque of $850 million, paid down their debt. They're able to invest $50 million a year now in services for Nova Scotia: education, highways, health, and so on. That was the intent of the accord.

Now if they want to have the same advantages other provinces are having for new funding under the equalization, they have to abandon their accord. They have to tear it up. And that's not right. That's not what your members, across the way from ours, and the Atlantic members in the Liberal Party were fighting for when we got the accord.