Evidence of meeting #9 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gérard Lalonde  Senior Chief, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Gerry Salembier  Director, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

—who threw out the word “banks” as an example of where communities are all protected and that there is equality. If anybody thinks that, we're dreaming.

Let me add one more point, and that has to do with your point, Mr. Chairperson, on the Superintendent of Financial Institutions.

I just sat through a committee hearing with the superintendent, and I tried, on a whole set of issues, to ask for some comment, whether we're talking about payday lenders, or income trusts, or banking, on some serious problems in terms of competition, in terms of access, in terms of equality. Each and every time, the superintendent said, “That is not my field; that is not my area. Don't forget the word “prudential”. If I teach you anything it's the word 'prudential'.”

In other words, the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions does not do what you said. That is erroneous; that is not correct. They simply look at it from the point of view of a business decision.

I can't believe that you're going to try to create the impression with this committee, on record, that the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions is going to somehow play a key role in ensuring that all of these mortgage lenders coming onto the scene are not only going to have a good, sound business plan, but they're also going to be worried about all regions and groups in this country, regardless of profitability. I think that's exactly why these amendments are here, and you're not doing a very good service. This government is not playing a responsible role, as it said it would before the election and during the election, around accountability, transparency, and openness. I think it's a big mistake not to do something.

These might not be the perfect amendments, but I'm surprised, Mr. Turner. You opened up this issue—

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

May I have order, please.

Madam, direct your comments through the chair.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

Sorry, Mr. Chairperson.

I'm surprised that Mr. Turner, who responsibly opened up this area for our attention and immediately backed off.... I don't suggest we look at giving special privileges to Genworth. I think Genworth should be part of this whole package of oversight, as well. I don't know what suddenly happened in the last few days to suggest that there is no problem in terms of competition.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

A point of order, Mr. McCallum.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

A long time ago Mr. Garth Turner intervened, and you said it was coming to an end. Can I move that we vote?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

I'm reluctant to continue this debate; however, I'm also reluctant to suspend members' ability to communicate their points, regardless of whether we find validity in the presentations or not.

I'll ask again, Madam Wasylycia-Leis, perhaps you could work towards a conclusion rather promptly. I think there's a strong sense among your colleagues that we're ready for a vote at this point.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

I'll just conclude by suggesting that this is a reasonable proposition. It will not affect business and competition. It will not make it more difficult to do business. We had some of the folks who were here themselves say they would like to see some of these criteria built in. We had a clear statement from Desjardins; we had a clear statement from home builders; we had a clear statement from real estate.

I didn't hear one of the potential mortgage insurance companies jump in and say, “We couldn't handle that.” I don't think there would be any opposition to some rational process for ensuring that there was a way to collect data, to oversee the process, and to ensure some equality across a region and income group.

I would just finally conclude by saying that often we think we're far ahead of the United States in this country. Well, in this case, they've had no trouble in the country to the south of us realizing the importance of collecting data regarding loan originations, applications, and loan purchases. They've had no trouble collecting information on the basis of ethnicity, race, gender, and gross income. That has been an important part of their attempt to ensure responsible, accountable, open mortgage disclosure systems in that country.

I think we could at least do that here in Canada.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Thank you, Madam.

I'll call for the vote now.

Do you wish a recorded vote?

I'm told that procedurally, on your page marked “NDP-1”, we have to divide it after section (b) into two, because it deals with two separate clauses.

With your indulgence, we will call it “NDP-3”, under section (d) and what follows on that page. We'll call it “NDP-3”, and I will take your vote on this to be for or against both NDP-1 and NDP-3.

Is that fair enough?

A recorded vote was called for. We'll proceed.

(Amendments negatived: nays 9; yeas 2) [See Minutes of Proceedings])

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

We will take NDP-1 and NDP-3 as defeated, for clarification. Now we will vote on NDP-2.

Do you wish a recorded vote again, colleagues, or can we apply the vote from the first?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

I'll support that vote.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

We'll go with a recorded vote again, just for simplicity.

(Amendment negatived: nays 8; yeas 3) [See Minutes of Proceedings]

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Shall clause 193 pass?

On a point of order, Mr. Pacetti.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

I just want to put on the record the question regarding removing the number of Canadians from the tax rolls and what I had said earlier. In the economic update, I found this on page 131. We had stated in the economic update that we'd remove 500,000 Canadians from the tax rolls. That would go up to 860,000, and that's the difference. In the Conservative budget papers it's 655,000, but that's over a two-year period.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

That's not a point of order, as you well know.

(Clause 193 agreed to)

(Clauses 194 to 217 inclusive agreed to on division)

(Schedule 1 agreed to on division)

(Schedule 2 agreed to on division)

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Shall the short title carry?

11:35 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

11:35 a.m.

An hon. member

On division.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Shall the title carry?

11:35 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Shall the bill carry?

11:35 a.m.

An hon. member

On division.

11:35 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Shall the chair report the bill to the House?

11:35 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

11:35 a.m.

An hon. member

No.