Finance Committee on May 12th, 2008

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

In that case, we should perhaps try to kill two birds with one stone, and provide for the needs of large cities and commuter transportation while giving the economy a good boost.

I would like you to explain how investing in urban transit helps to create jobs. In times of economic slowdown, is this not a major tool that the government could use?

Instead of using 100% of the surplus to pay down the debt, we should consider the possibility of using some of the surplus to improve the quality of our infrastructures.

[Michael Roschlau]

Precisely. There are two things. First, we have the manufacturing industry in Canada. Whether it is a railway car or a bus, three of the largest bus manufacturers in North America are located in Canada, and 80% of their products are exported to the United States. We have to support that industry.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

If we want them to use new technologies, we have to provide them with the markets. We can act as a laboratory for development.

[Michael Roschlau]

That's true, all the more so since now that the Canadian dollar is at par with the American dollar, there is a move to export jobs to the United States in order to be more competitive with that country.

There is also the operational part of the equation. In order to provide urban transit to our cities, we have to hire drivers and mechanics locally. Urban transit always provides local spinoffs.

[Louise Poirier]

Let me give you a brief example. The City of Gatineau has invested $200 million in a project called Rapibus. This will have a direct impact on local job creation while providing transportation for suburban residents. That is also an important factor. A city with a good urban transit system will also attract companies and industries. That is also something that must be taken into account.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I have a little time left, Mr. Cohen, and I would like you to know that I am hoping that our immigration laws will put an end to situations such as the one you described in relation to your grandfather. We should always remember that type of example, even if it only applies to one individual, in order to ensure that the same mistakes will not be repeated. We must always strive to improve.

Does that mean that the current bill is regressive and could lead us back to rather intolerable situations?

[David Cohen]

Very quickly, I will just say that the more discretion that is allowed into the immigration system, the more likely there are to be examples of the ones I gave in my introductory remarks. The more we can limit the discretion and put a structure in place that is wholly objective and transparent, the less likely we are to see the kind of examples I brought out.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Del Mastro, seven minutes.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Cohen, in your opinion, somebody who participates in an Internet forum--are they looking for anonymity?

[David Cohen]

No, sir.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

So why are you protecting the individual, whom you claim is an immigration officer, who's posted these abhorrent comments you've made here, alleging they are from an immigration officer? Why are you protecting the identity of that person? Because I'll tell you, if they do work for Immigration Canada, I will demand that person be fired today. A person who makes comments like that has no place in my immigration system.

Why won't you identify who that person is?

[David Cohen]

It's the policy of our immigration website that we do not give the identity of anybody who posts on a public forum. But I will tell you this: I am wholly satisfied that the person in fact is an immigration officer, because not only did the individual place that posting but 41 other postings were made. And from those postings, it's evident that the person is an immigration officer.

More than that, I would ask you this question. If somebody is making a public posting like that and works in a facility that has more than 100 other employees, as this immigration officer states, wouldn't you think that this immigration officer's colleagues and supervisors might know how the immigration officer feels?

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

I would propose to you, sir, that if you know who this person is, you identify who the person is so that the person can be dealt with. Otherwise, I'm going to disregard the comments you've made as being the conjecture of an individual who would like to cast a negative light on our immigration officers, people whom, as you started your comments saying, you have respect for.

I have no respect for someone in our immigration system who harbours that kind of sentiment towards people from other nations. I'll tell you that straight up. And if there is an individual working in our immigration system who harbours that kind of ill will towards other communities, they should be dealt with accordingly. Our immigration system has been and will continue to be governed by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and it does not allow for that kind of discrimination or those types of statements to be made against anybody. We protect people in this country and we fight against sentiment like that. If there's a person in the employment of the Government of Canada who feels that way, they should be outed and dealt with accordingly, I'll tell you that right now.

Secondly, you said—

[David Cohen]

Can I just respond to that for a moment?

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Please do.

[David Cohen]

It really isn't about this particular individual.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Yes, it is.

[David Cohen]

The difference between this individual and other individuals is that this person is showing you what's in his or her heart. Most people won't do that. That's why you need an immigration selection system that removes as much discretion as possible and relies upon objective criteria.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Sir, we have a broken immigration system, with 920,000 people on the waiting list. It's broken. That's why changes are needed. But you would really have to convince me that there is something wrong with our officers when Canada is the multicultural model of the world. Toronto has representatives of some 150 nations or more living in the city of Toronto. You're almost indicating that you feel somehow it's endemic within Immigration Canada that people harbour these kinds of sentiments about cultural communities, and we're therefore discriminating against cultural communities. I would argue that in Canada there is no evidence of that. If there is an individual who does harbour this kind of feeling within them, then they should be outed.

[David Cohen]

Listen, individuals have biases. You really can't deny that. If you have a system that is purely objective, it really makes very little difference whether or not the person has biases.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

My next comment is that an immigration systems with.... To everyone who's here on immigration, if you feel that the people on this committee don't know enough about immigration to be looking at it, I'll tell you that we have full-time staff in my office in Peterborough, and I deal with immigration files regularly. There's probably no file that any person at this table deals with more intimately than immigration. We deal with it all the time, and it's because the system is broken.

That said, I would argue that a system with 925,000 people on the waiting list is automatically discriminating against people. In your case, sir, it's discriminating against people who can't afford to hire an attorney to assist them with the immigration system. Isn't that right?

[David Cohen]

No, that's not right at all. It really has nothing to with the hiring of an attorney. Frankly—

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Do you work for everyone, or do you work for the people who can afford to pay you?

[David Cohen]

Sorry, can you repeat that, please?

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Obviously some people can afford to pay an attorney and some people cannot. That is a discriminatory system. We have to fix it.