Finance Committee on Feb. 10th, 2009

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Now, just so we're clear on that, that money cannot be used to provide any support at all to the communities from which the money has been taken, whether that's Comox or Prince George, because of the structure of the softwood lumber sellout. Some people would characterize it as such. Many of my constituents certainly do, because we lost three plants to the softwood sellout. Essentially, that money cannot be transferred by the provinces back to the communities. Is that not correct?

[William Baker]

I couldn't comment on that, sir. We're charged simply with administering the export charge and making sure we accurately collect the right amount and that it goes out to the provinces correctly as well. That's the extent of our involvement in this program.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

So the conditions of the softwood sellout, the imposition that the money can't be used to provide any support whatsoever to the softwood communities, is not something you administer.

[William Baker]

No. You're talking about a policy issue that would have gone into the genesis of the whole arrangement. Policy for that program rests with International Trade. We're charged with administering that portion of it.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Yes. So the money comes in, and money goes back to the province, but the additional penalty that the money can't be used in any way to support the jobs that have been lost is not something you administer. I'm rephrasing what you said, but basically that's what you said.

[William Baker]

We essentially get paid to make sure that policy, as set by federal and provincial governments, happens the way it's expected to happen, and that's what we do.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Yes. But you don't administer the back end, the additional penalty. Okay.

You gave us the figures for 2007-08. Could you give us the figures for 2006-07? There was $437 million in penalties paid by softwood communities across the country in 2007-08.

[James Ralston]

I believe the first year was a partial year.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Yes.

[James Ralston]

And I believe it was in the order of $166 million.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

It was $166 million. That's from October 12, 2006, which was a day, of course, that lives in infamy in softwood communities across the country. That's the first day the penalty was imposed on hardworking softwood workers and their communities, and from that date that would go to March 31, 2007.

[James Ralston]

That's right. I believe it was the first $166,437,000, and now you have $419 million. I believe those are the....

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Okay. And could you give us, then, the sum total of all the money that's been ripped out of softwood communities since October 12, 2006?

[James Ralston]

I believe the sum of those numbers I just quoted comes to about $1.03 billion.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

It's over $1 billion. Wow, a second billion-dollar penalty.

So the softwood community has coughed up a billion dollars, which was simply given away by the Conservative government. You're telling us that since that time--

[Ted Menzies, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Chair, is this even relevant?

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

--they have had to cough up another billion dollars?

[Ted Menzies, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

It's in order, Mr. Menzies, as you know.

[Ted Menzies, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

This isn't even relevant. We have experts here who are going to talk about tax issues, about supplementary estimates, not about policies that actually have the support of this House.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Menzies, as much as you or I may not like the tone of the questions, the supplementary estimates do include a reference to softwood lumber payments. I believe the questions are in order.

Mr. Julian, you have one minute left.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You are indeed correct. It is in order to find out that hardworking softwood communities have cumulatively paid over $1.033 billion in penalties imposed by the Conservative government. That's the correct figure, if I've understood.

[James Ralston]

It's $166 million, plus $437 million, plus $419 million.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

It's over $1 billion.

During that same time we're talking about 15,000 jobs that have been lost. Essentially we're looking at about $75,000. If you do that formula, for every $75,000 of punitive payments--

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

This is your final question.