Evidence of meeting #41 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was education.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
We should be keeping in mind the real cost of having a permanent underclass as opposed to having more people as productive members of the workforce, etc.
It just strikes me, sitting here—I'm not a member of this committee—that we live in the richest and most powerful civilization in the history of the world and we can't provide for the basic needs of our families to flourish. There's something wrong with the redistribution of wealth system that this committee is supposed to be commenting on.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Healthcare Association
Our brief does speak to that issue and the statistics behind that gap between the very wealthy and the very poor and the impact that has on the overall economy, the health of the nation.
Conservative
Liberal
John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON
Ms. Fralick, you say that tax cuts and targeted tax expenditures are not appropriate measures. I take it the thrust of that point is that tax measures, targeted credits, and things of that nature are entirely useless if your income is pretty low.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Healthcare Association
Exactly. I'm a former dancer and love the idea of ballet classes or soccer schools and coaching, or whatever, but those who need the breaks the most cannot benefit from them. It's not that they're bad, but they're not the solution to the issue we've just been talking about.
Liberal
John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON
Yes. So if you're affluent and have an illness, that's good, you can use the tax credit, but if you're not....
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Healthcare Association
It speaks to the health issue, because the more active we get our children and ourselves, the greater the impact on, again, the health of the nation. But as an effort in addressing the needs of the most vulnerable, who really need our help, it's not effective.
Liberal
John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON
Yes. Thank you very much.
Mr. Anthony, the guild recommends that the federal tax regime be expanded forward and backward to make eligible appropriate pre-production and post-production costs, and that it be broadened to include relevant non-labour costs. Could you give me a bit of an idea of what that means?
National Execuive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Directors Guild of Canada
Sure.
At the moment, in terms of the federal tax credit program, you can claim labour costs for tax credit purposes, but you cannot claim other non-labour costs such as equipment rental, studio rental, and so on. Quebec and Ontario--Ontario following Quebec's example--have moved to what we call an all-spend eligibility regime whereby all your eligible costs, not just your labour costs but your other costs, are eligible for consideration for tax credit purposes. We feel that if the federal government were to follow that example, we could have a truly national approach--assuming other provinces will move in that direction--to making all the costs associated with film, television, and digital media production eligible.
Liberal
John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON
What was the original rationale to limit it to labour costs?
National Execuive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Directors Guild of Canada
I'm not certain. It goes back into the mists of time. As you know, in the early days of federal involvement in encouraging film and television production there was a 100% capital cost allowance program--that goes back to the seventies. That generated a whole lot of film and telefilm productions--
National Execuive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Directors Guild of Canada
Yes, so they reduced it to 50%. Then they wound it up and replaced it with the labour cost tax credit. I think the feeling was that it was putting our people to work, but the costs associated with film and television production are much more complex and more broadly based than simple labour.
Liberal
John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON
So it was an attempt to eliminate abuse. Thank you.
My final question, similar to Mr. Martin's, is on this certified seed incentive. Would a certified tax incentive to the farmer effectively be paying for the research costs of private companies?
Executive Director, Grain Growers of Canada
The tax credit would go directly to the farmer, and that would be an incentive to do it. Right now with wheat, for example, about 18% of the wheat acreage is seeded with certified seed. The other farmers save their seed from the previous year, clean it up, and plant it again. We're trying to encourage more public sector investment, but we want the private sector to invest more in some of these crops as well. If there were a suggestion of another mechanism to spur that sort of investment, we'd certainly be open to that.
Liberal
John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON
It's a bit incongruous that somehow or other the taxpayer of Canada ends up giving a credit directly to the farmer in this case so a company that has a licensing regime on a particular seed can sell more seed.
Executive Director, Grain Growers of Canada
Yes, but that could also very well be the university or Agriculture Canada. Without the certified seed and farmers buying that seed, no money goes back.
Liberal
John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON
Would it be appropriate to restrict the credit to purchases from non-private sources?
Executive Director, Grain Growers of Canada
I don't think we'd want to differentiate that. I think there's a role to play. Even in crops like canola, for example, where there's a huge amount of private sector investment, there's still a lot of public sector investment too. There are areas where the public does research that simply will never be done by the private sector. It could be on rotation, for example. If you add an oculant to pulse crops, they actually create nitrogen and put it in the soil so the farmer doesn't have to buy nitrogen the next year. The fertilizer, chemical, and seed companies would never invest in that research. It's actually just peer agronomic research that's good for farmers. We need some way to have money going back from farmers. We're willing to pay the royalties to help fund that, in partnership with government.
Conservative
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
My question is for Ms. Donnelly.
About five or six months ago the education department of a particular Canadian province published a report. The province in question is not Quebec. After studying the adult population of the province, the education department noted that 50% of the adults in the province could be considered functional illiterates.
It is a real problem in today's society. I do not have exact statistics for Quebec or other Canadian provinces, but it remains the case that a significant percentage of the Canadian population can be considered to be functionally illiterate. That does not mean that these people do not know how to read and write; it means that the majority do not understand what they're reading. Even in today's society, a significant proportion of the young people coming out of our school can be considered functional illiterates. It is very difficult for such people to undertake post-secondary education. It is also very difficult for them to keep themselves informed and navigate their way through the labour market; for example, it can make it difficult for them to handle workplace harassment. It can be that serious. It keeps them in poverty. The province in question decided to launch a literacy upgrading program, as surprising as that may seem. Under the program, adults are given the opportunity to go back to school on a part-time basis, in the evenings, to bring their literacy skills up to a functional level, so that they can read and understand what they're reading.
I have some reservations with regard to what you said about the education system. If so many of the people that come out of it are considered functionally illiterate, how can you talk about an efficient system? I come from a riding where, according to the education department's statistics, in one RCM in four, more than 55% of people can be considered functionally illiterate. I repeat, one RCM in four. It is tragic. Those people who have literacy skills have left the region in question, and as a result, we find ourselves with a society that has been progressively weakened. A Senate committee report on rural affairs revealed shocking levels of illiteracy in rural Canada, particularly in the western provinces. I struggle to understand how we have so many functional illiterates, given the education system that we have.
President, Canadian Teachers' Federation
Well, I wish I had all the answers to our societal problems. I can't explain every single survey, but I can say that we have a good education system in Canada. We are graduating very well-educated people. At the same time, we have a very high dropout rate in people in the lower socio-economic group, and they could be encompassed in those adults who are illiterate.
We have lots of issues and challenges in education. We have discovered that everybody doesn't learn the same way, and everybody doesn't come to school with the same type of academic motivation or capabilities. We've learned that over the last number of years in education. Certainly over the last 30 years we have seen huge changes in education--in the way we teach, in the way we know students learn, in our resources, in the materials we provide, and things like that.
I am aware of the survey that was done, but I question the age range. When it talks about adults, what is the age range? Are they new graduates? Are they older people who were through the system 50 years ago? Are they rural?
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
References to the adult population in the province in question are references to those aged 18 and over. I would be happy to give you the name of the province and you can check for yourself, but I do not want to name it here.
Conservative
September 16th, 2009 / 6:20 p.m.
President, Canadian Teachers' Federation
We do have a good education system in Canada, but we still have challenges. Once again I come back to that underfunded system we have.
Right now we're battling class size and class composition. We know we can't handle all of the children who come in front of us, so we have to get the class sizes down. Class composition has huge implications for what you can do with classes. We've learned that over the years. Once again, it's why we keep advocating and lobbying that education is an investment, so put your money into education. And it's not only money; it's the resources as well, so everybody stays in school, becomes literate, and graduates.
