Finance Committee on Sept. 29th, 2009

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

So you want to make sure that the product is actually environmentally green?

Have you tried it locally, so that locally you'd be able to experiment and say, well, this does work if we price it at a certain point? I think it's price point that's important.

[Sheri Strydhorst]

Pulses are very cost-competitive. They're not an expensive protein source. I think it's more that we need more things for the consumer to realize that, branding them as that environmentally friendly type of food product.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

So a lot of it is marketing?

[Sheri Strydhorst]

Yes.

[Tom Jackson]

If I could just add something, the Government of Canada has helped us with a science and innovation program where we have doctors and many studies that examine in the diet what it does for obesity, so we would maybe--

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

No, I agree.

I don't mean to interrupt; it's just that our time is limited.

My point is that I understand that it's good for you, healthy and all that, but in the end, when somebody goes to a grocery store, they look at price.

[Tom Jackson]

But to actually get the claim on the package so that consumers know it's important that they add it to their diet--that's part of the science and innovation that the Government of Canada is helping us with.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I agree, yes, but people have to believe what's on the package, first of all, and they have to be able to read what's on the package, correct?

[Tom Jackson]

And that's all with Health Canada, what we need.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Okay. Thank you.

I have a quick question for Almita Manufacturing.

You were talking about productivity, and you were very complimentary in terms of all the programs that you were able to take advantage of, whether it be IRAP or R and D credits and so forth. But you spoke about productivity being below par.

I'm just wondering if your company has made any evaluation of how your productivity has been, because you've taken advantage of some of the programs the government has offered.

[Lawrence Kaumeyer]

The program I was referring to, Productivity Alberta, isn't actually a federal program. It's a provincial program. Really it's a non-profit board that basically has a business-led governing board and is supported by Alberta Finance.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

But we hear the statistics that Canadian companies have not done a good job in terms of upping their productivity. So I'm just wondering, with the help of IRAP and R and D, has productivity in your company gone up?

[Lawrence Kaumeyer]

It has, but it's broader than that.

In other words, lean marketing principles and understanding what truly drives productivity isn't just about IRAP and SR and ED and making an investment. It's about getting down to the shop floor and understanding what they do individually, day by day, to increase productivity. It has very little to do with what government can provide.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

So how do we make these programs easier for SMEs to use?

To both Mr. Lennox and Mr. Kaumeyer, how do we make IRAP more accessible?

I think, Mr. Lennox, you had a limit where you said we should probably make it more available to larger companies.

Perhaps you could also comment on R and D refundability. We didn't hear anybody asking for R and D credits to be refundable.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Very briefly, then--two comments on the two issues.

[Ross Lennox]

Okay.

I think there's a big gap between the SMEs and the large companies in terms of programs. The ITAs in particular are doing a fabulous job in terms of diversity of program and all the different industries they touch. I think it's really important to look at expanding their mandate, though, to talk about commercialization and what we call technology acceleration. They see lots of good ideas, but they don't have the capability of expanding the program to help companies where the B.C.s and other investors have disappeared.

I think that's where the gap of commercialization is missing.

[Lawrence Kaumeyer]

I'll just add that the dollar amount provided through EAP last year to the Province of Alberta was approximately $19 million for IRAP. The previous year it was $9.6 million. Without that additional funding for IRAP this past year, you would not have a significant number of uptakes in this SME area that would help drive additional growth in this province.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

You might have another round, Mr. Pacetti.

Monsieur Laforest, s'il vous plaît.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Ms. Laboucan. In your opening remarks, you stated that the funding provided to various band councils and aboriginal groups has not been consistent with the rate of inflation since the 1990s. In your opinion, do funding rules apply equally for all band councils across Canada, or are you talking exclusively about your own band council?

[Chief Rose Laboucan]

They're actually applied to all first nations across this country, a majority of which are not well-to-do.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Either you or Mr. Dupas said that education falls within provincial jurisdiction. I presume that you must reach agreements with the different provinces so that you can hire teachers. Does the band council hire teachers and is it obliged to pay salaries as stipulated in the collective agreement in effect, be it in Alberta or elsewhere, as is the case in Quebec? Do the individual collective agreements of each one of the provinces apply when it comes to hiring teachers and meeting working conditions?

[Chief Rose Laboucan]

Tuition agreements across this province manifest some of the issues that are occurring, because just a certain number of dollars come to first nations in our FTA, the federal transfer agreement. For example, I will get $5,400 per student, but for the tuition 40 kilometres down the road, I'm charged $9,500, so I have a shortfall already of that amount. Because I have a school that operates only to grade 9, I have to send my grades 10, 11, and 12 to that school, so I'm going to have a shortfall of more than $3,000 per student every year.

Our funding has been capped since 1993. That was the last time we got an increase.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I would like to know if the funding you receive takes the disparities in your obligations from one province to the next into account. For example, in Quebec, a teacher is entitled to a given salary, whereas in Alberta and Ontario and elsewhere, a teacher will receive a different salary. Is your federal government transfer always the same amount, or does it take into account educational, health care, and other types of disparities? Is it one general envelope?

[Darcy Dupas]

Multi-year funding agreements, to which you refer, have been capped at an increase of approximately 2% per year, for the past 13 years. So, no, they do not accommodate any inflation, demographic shifts, which are massive in first nations communities, or general cost structure changes, such as the Alberta Teachers' Association agreements, etc.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Therefore, it is almost as though some band councils are underprivileged, compared to others. I am convinced of this. In fact, the costs for education and health care are higher for certain band councils, and I presume that the funding method is totally inadequate because it does not account for disparities. That is how I see it.

Is this correct?