Finance Committee on Sept. 30th, 2009

[Tim Schultz]

We'll let the universities talk for themselves.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I thought it was all post-secondary.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Pacetti.

We're going to go to Mr. Cannan, please.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Like some of my colleagues, it's my first trip here to Yellowknife. I represent a riding, Okanagan--Kelowna, in beautiful British Columbia, but I've spent many years in Edmonton and I know the importance to this community of the northern connection, especially the post-secondary. We had a tour of the University of Alberta yesterday, but I wasn't as familiar with the importance of our applied research and education. It's a similar thread we've heard through our presenters, investing in people for increasing our research innovation and productivity.

I'd like to start off by commending you, Mr. Connell, and your company for investing in human capital. Your first initiative is to invest in people, and you ask the Government of Canada to help by providing additional investment. Do you have a dollar value? Would you be set up to provide those programs, or would you be relying on organizations like Mr. Schultz's and the territorial government?

[Larry Connell]

We're not looking for government to invest in our training. We're responsible for the training of our skills.

What we're looking for is government to make an investment in Nunavut itself, through the Government of Nunavut, to improve the educational system to ensure the skill levels of the adults and the students coming through the system get to such a standard that they actually can be employed by the mine. Right now they're not. As a result, there's a whole generation missing out on these opportunities.

It's not specifically to our skills, the skills we will train on; it's really to help the Government of Nunavut provide a basic level of education to both students and the adult forum to ensure we have a workforce to draw from.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I guess the good news locally here is that you've received a couple of million dollars, matching with the territorial governments, to do exactly that--provide some necessary basic education so that they can get to the level to go into the apprenticeship program, which is a step in the right direction.

To Mr. Schultz, your second request was to increase funding to Indian and Northern Affairs for post-secondary. Do you have a dollar value for that?

[Tim Schultz]

No, I don't have a dollar value for that, because I think it certainly would differ by jurisdiction. I think we're hearing this morning the challenges facing first nations, Inuit, and Métis learners.

I can tell you that the issues up in the Northwest Territories and the other territories may be on a higher scale, but we deal with the same issues in Alberta when it comes to aboriginal learners and immigrant learners coming into Alberta who do not have the basic educational requirements to access post-secondary education, be it college, technical institute, or university.

You know, I liked Larry's presentation. I think there are certainly opportunities for colleges south of 60 to come up here and partner with corporations to deliver training, because we do it in Alberta. I think there may be some capacities that we can build on there.

There is a lack of post-secondary education in the Northwest Territories, Yukon, and Nunavut. There must be ways that we can all partner together to deal with that issue. Collaboration and partnership--that's the only way we're going to deal with most issues these days.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I agree. It's all in working together.

To Ms. Montreuil, I support your direction. I am on another committee as well, the human resources committee, and we're doing a national study on poverty across the country. We've been working for several months, working towards a recommendation to our government. The committee will be bringing that forward in the near future. It is a concern of first nations communities in different parts of the country and of working families from sea to sea to sea. We are working on that issue.

To Mrs. Melhorn, Premier Roland and some of your colleagues were at the Pacific NorthWest Economic Region Summit in Boise, Idaho, in July, and talked about some of the green sustainable energy programs. I know you talked about a green infrastructure. Have you applied for any of the $2 billion that's available in the 2009 budget for green projects?

[Margaret Melhorn]

Yes. We have identified the Talston project as a priority. We're also, as you mentioned, over this year and the following three years, planning to invest $60 million in alternative energy projects and in finding ways to lower the cost of energy for northerners.

We will also be looking to find some federal support for some other projects that we're still looking at.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Excellent.

You also made a request--

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Very brief question.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Sure.

In your request, you mentioned not per capita but a base funding amount. Have you come up with some sort of formula that would be more equitable, in your mind?

[Margaret Melhorn]

The amounts that are needed in the north are significant. I don't want to give dollar figures right now, but when we talk about our infrastructure needs, they are in the many hundreds of millions of dollars. That's why, when we talk about allocating infrastructure money on a per capita basis, it just makes no sense whatsoever.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Cannan.

I realize that we are over time, but I do have three more members, including the chair, who have a few more questions. I will impress upon your time, if I can. However, if you have to leave, we certainly understand that.

I'll go to Mr. Bevington, then Mr. Pacetti, and then me.

Mr. Bevington.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Thank you.

I want to thank my colleagues for giving me the opportunity to ask another few questions.

There are, of course, many things that we can talk about here. Devolution certainly is a subject that is important to the north, not only for the resource revenues that are there but as well for control over development. The way in which development occurs makes a difference in terms of the impact on the north.

You spoke of the Talston hydro project. This was a project that was identified to support the diamond industry, yet in the original environmental assessments it was never.... The federal government excluded it from the assessment of the Ekati mine. So what we're having here is a catch-up game, developing an energy source for these mines that is more economical, that is clean, that would serve us in developing the infrastructure that we can use for ourselves. It's an important project, and it's one that perhaps would not have occurred in the same way if the Northwest Territories had control over its own development.

Perhaps you could comment on that as well.

Well, I'm sure almost anyone here at the table would want to comment on that.

[Margaret Melhorn]

Certainly.

Devolution, for us, is more than only access to the royalties associated with resource development. Devolution means transfer of the responsibility for the management and control of NWT resources to the NWT. As you say, having the control of that management regime gives us much more say and much more control over how our resources are developed and more control over our own economic future.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

In terms of the royalty rates, when I sat on the Mackenzie Valley board in 2000, we asked for a review of the royalty rates from the federal government when we did the K-29 gas project with the pipelines. The government agreed at that time. In the intervening nine years, has there been any review of the royalty structures in the Northwest Territories?

[Katherine Mackenzie]

There was a review in the last few years, actually, but it wasn't a substantial review. It was only done by INAC, so it wasn't a fully public review. I guess we feel that it wasn't thorough enough and kind of warrants a second look.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Okay.

With devolution, one of our resources has been taken off the table by the federal government. That's the Norman Wells oilfield. They've said that they will not share the royalties or the profits from that development. Is that not the case in our present negotiations?

[Margaret Melhorn]

The federal government has made the point that they consider the Normal Wells oilfield and their interest in that to be an investment and a return on investment. We take a different position: those are simply royalties in a different form.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

What's the value of their return from that investment this year?

[Margaret Melhorn]

I'm going from memory, so don't hold me to this. I think the 2007-08 public accounts would be the most recent numbers. We don't have 2008-09 numbers, so they'd be based on numbers that are tied to a much higher price of oil. I think it was in the order of $100 million, but it could be lower this year since the oil price is lower.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have time for a final quick question, Mr. Bevington.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Certainly, when it comes to the responsibility for ensuring that northern interests are well taken in resource development, do you see the present discussion around the regulatory system as giving us a greater say? Do you hear the dialogue that's going on, saying that when we're discussing how to streamline the regulatory system...? Is that purpose to give northerners a greater responsibility for their resource development?