Mr. Chair, if I could add to that, what I said earlier is in fact a response to your question, which is to start regulating defined benefit plans the same way we regulate banks and insurance companies. In other words, if you have risk on a balance sheet, you must have a risk buffer against adverse outcomes. That's what we do with banks and insurance companies. We have not done that with DB plans. Until we start doing that, we're going to continue to have these problems.
I totally agree with everything that was said about these insurance schemes. They will never, never work.