Finance Committee on Sept. 29th, 2011

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

I would agree. It's a balanced approach, but on the other hand, we must recognize that there are other programs, because we need a strong society. We need a strong financial position to address those things, and I think you would agree with that as well too.

[Rob Rainer]

For sure. I'd just like to emphasize that the evidence shows that nations that are prepared to invest significantly in social development and social security, social protection, have stronger health outcomes, equity outcomes, community, democratic outcomes, and competition and productivity outcomes. The evidence is there, and we can provide some of that to you if you're interested.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren.

Mr. Giguère, go ahead. You have five minutes.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Good afternoon. Would the pensions expert, Michel St-Germain, please come forward? I have a few questions to ask about actuaries.

Mr. St-Germain, the document that is part of the results presented by the Canadian Pension Plan and the study conducted by the Chaire d'études socio-économiques at UQAM, headed by Léo-Paul Lauzon, seems to indicate that we are obviously headed toward a major economic Walkerton in 30 years. The money that would provide people with a comfortable retirement won't be there.

We don't have to be rocket scientists to figure that out. Am I right?

[Michel St-Germain]

Your question is actually twofold. I want to point out that, if we compare them with other countries' plans, we realize that the Canada Pension Plan and the Québec Pension Plan each have some of the best governance structures out there.

I don't want your question to imply that the Canada Pension Plan and the Québec Pension Plan are poorly managed, as that is not the case. However, our society has a hard time saving money. Some people do not save enough, even though there are countless options for doing so.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Well, Léo-Paul Lauzon said that out of 18,500,000 Canadians who earn less than $50,000 a year, barely 15% have RRSPs. It's not that they don't want to save, but rather that they don't have the money for it.

[Michel St-Germain]

You just put your finger on one of our problems. People who don't have enough money to save have insufficient resources. They have insufficient resources prior to retirement and, unfortunately, their money troubles will continue after retirement.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Currently, I think that out of all the proposals, be it a voluntary retirement savings plan or an individual retirement plan, the only option that can truly guarantee a pension equal to 50% of a person's income is the one offered by the Canada Pension Plan, which is mandatory for everyone.

[Michel St-Germain]

You are right.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. St-Germain.

My next question is for Alain Pineau. Mr. Pineau, regarding intellectual property, there is currently a tax imposed on CDs. In some countries, that tax was extended to certain types of equipment that make it possible to make copies using small digital devices. Most countries, such as France and Argentina, have that type of tax in place.

How does Canada's not imposing that type of tax negatively affect our artists?

[Alain Pineau]

First off, I want to make it clear that it is not a tax. And that has nothing to do with semantics. In actual fact, it is not a tax, but payment for a right, the right of a user to make copies. It is not a tax either in the technical sense of the word or in the fundamental sense underpinning the concept.

This regime exists in Canada and is part of the collective administration regime introduced in the late 1990s in response to new technologies. Far from perfect, this instrument has been the target of much criticism. Anyone could claim that they were not using a tape or CD for artistic purposes. So it is definitely not ideal, but it's the best regime that was found as far as collective administration goes. That is why the cultural sector as a whole has campaigned so hard, unsuccessfully thus far, for the preservation and expansion of this regime, which represents the lesser evil in terms of ensuring some revenue for artists and creators in general.

If there were a better solution, we would be the first to get on board, but that has not been the case so far.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I read something about tobacco control that gave me a bit of a start. It was about society's undesirables and problems with organized crime. Actually, I haven't heard much about it and I don't deny that organized crime is an issue, but in 1763, General Murray gave aboriginals the right to engage in trade.

Are we considering the possibility, first, that aboriginals are not a people and, second, that General Murray's treaty is no longer valid?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Grant, just make a very brief comment, please.

[Gary Grant]

There are two types of people we're talking about here.

If you're discussing the aboriginals, the majority of people who live on the native reserves are law-abiding and want to get on with their lives. They're basically being intimidated and terrorized by the criminal element in their communities, which is manufacturing these cigarettes and reaping huge profits. Nobody wants them there, but there are bad apples in every community.

Contraband is then being smuggled over to the provincial sides and turned over to the hands of organized crime. The RCMP has estimated there are 175 organized criminal gangs, and we're not talking about mum and dad going to the smoke shack and picking up five cartons for their home; we're talking about organized gangs that bring truckfuls of cigarettes.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

We'll go now to Mr. Jean, please.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses.

I want to let you know that, in relation to the cigarette issue, you not only have a staunch supporter in me but also in Larry Miller. He's an MP from Ontario, obviously, and he brings that forward constantly. I agree with you. I have many family members who are aboriginals, and this is organized crime using the most vulnerable of our society for its own profit, its own gain, and trying to avoid taxes and nothing more. It is criminal activity.

But my interest is really in the colleges, Mr. Knight, primarily because I think, first of all, our government did some great work on the knowledge infrastructure program, and in particular in my riding in northern Alberta, which is a hot spot of economic activity right now. It has a very low unemployment rate and can't find people to do any kind of work. The colleges are working in partnership with many of the industries. Syncrude and Suncor, for instance, have positive relationships with Keyano College in Fort McMurray. Lakeland College, which is also in my riding, but in the south, and Portage College, as well as Athabasca University, are all creating partnerships with the oilsands industry and different industries that facilitate that type of work. Let's face it, all these people who work at Syncrude and were hired back in the eighties are retiring—and I'm not talking about 200 people, but 8,000 people—and Syncrude is paying huge dollars to try to keep them there. But the reality is that it can only do that on a one-off basis for a short period of time.

So my question to you, Mr. Knight, is this. What can we do as a government through legislative initiatives, tax initiatives, to encourage these partnerships and to encourage these colleges to train more people, because that is the future of our country, at least in western Canada? What can we do to train more people in all parts of the country, whether it be in Mr. Brison's riding or in Newfoundland, etc.? As you know, most of my population is from Atlantic Canada; probably in my riding 50,000 or 60,000 people are from Atlantic Canada. I very much appreciate that, because they vote for me. What can we do to encourage the colleges across the country to move towards this by way of tax incentives and to have these people trained?

[James Knight]

I think you've identified one of the great strengths of the college system. Engagement with local businesses is very much a part of the culture, part of the strategy. I think in your part of the country, you're uniquely situated to do that, because you have these very large industries with large amounts of money, desperately needing more trained people to work for them.

This isn't the case everywhere in the country. We don't have that concentration of very large industries prepared to do this. We have many strong relationships. In Winnipeg there's a great relationship with the New Flyer bus company and with the military, but it's not at that scale and not at that size. So I think public investment in education matching or parallel to the private sector investment you mentioned is quite important.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

If I may, I don't have a lot of time and I want to get to this.

If we created a tax incentive for corporations to partner or to encourage colleges at the local level to go into these training programs.... What discourages me is that I have so many people from Atlantic Canada who come to Fort McMurray, for instance, and are not trained in a skill. They don't have a class 1 or even a class 3 licence. In Fort McMurray, somebody with a class 1 licence can find a job that would pay upwards of $150,000 a year to work six days on, six days off. These are the types of initiatives that I think would move us forward as a country, to be more productive and to have that at every college across the country, not just in Fort McMurray or Lac La Biche. How do we move forward to allow that in every part of the country?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Just give a very brief response, please, Mr. Knight.

[James Knight]

Well, if every part of the country had the dimensions of economic success of your part of the country, it would be easy. It's a little more difficult in other environments; it's clearly more difficult. Why are people coming out of Nova Scotia without the right education for your industries? It's because they don't have that support in their own province. That's one of the reasons.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay, thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Nicholls, please.

[James Knight]

We could have further discussion on this, though.

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I'd like to thank you, Mr. Chair, and the witnesses who have appeared.

I'm glad, Mr. Rainer, that you mentioned that there are even politicians who fall into poverty. It reminds me of a member of Parliament from my own riding, Mr. Louis-René Beaudoin, whose portrait hangs out in the hall next to us. He was also a Speaker of the House. He unfortunately died virtually penniless in the back of a Montreal taxi cab in 1970. So no one's immune to poverty.

I would like to look specifically here at poverty and the role of poverty in child sexual abuse. I'm sure you'll agree with me that poverty is one of the factors in child abuse, physical and sexual. Given that 85% of perpetrators are someone the child knows, such as a father or a step-father, do you believe that a crime bill compensating victims would have any effect on eradicating the cycle of abuse, given that both the perpetrator and the victim will likely be living in poverty?