Finance Committee on April 16th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Please do read it into the record.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

The motion I've submitted is as follows:

That the committee invite the Minister of National Revenue and the appropriate department officials to appear before the committee before Tuesday, April 30, 2013, to explain the impact that budget reductions at the Canada Revenue Agency will have on the agency's capacity to effectively prevent, investigate and prosecute cases of tax evasion using international tax havens.

In our view, it would be very helpful to clear the air if the officials and the minister could attend and explain what is planned with the resourcing at the Canada Revenue Agency.

The motion is not intended to be partisan in nature. The spirit of my motion is clear. We think having the minister and her officials attend would represent a very basic level of ministerial accountability to this committee and would be consistent with the basic principles of accountability reflected in this government's Federal Accountability Act.

Yesterday in the House, the minister stated, to a question from one of her colleagues, certain things about the number of audit positions having increased by 40% and the staff in the aggressive tax planning division nearly doubling as well. She also referenced changes that are proposed in the current budget. Yet the information that has been presented elsewhere is that the budget of the CRA has been reduced—the number of full-time equivalents has declined by some 3,000 over three years. The minister has assured us the cuts will not affect the work of going after tax evaders and those who abuse tax havens.

It seems to me it would be helpful, as part of our job as parliamentarians, to have the minister and her key officials attend to assist us in performing our responsibilities to Canadians.

Again, I say this is not intended to be a motion of a partisan nature. I'm sure, like me over the past few weeks, all members will have heard from their constituents about tax evaders and tax havens, especially now, as we're all completing our taxes.

In my view, it is imperative that we clear the air and get a basic understanding of the resourcing implications at the Canada Revenue Agency so that we are confident they have the horsepower to do their important work.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Rankin.

On the speakers' list I have Mrs. McLeod and Mr. Brison.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Certainly we do agree that the issue of tax evasion and the use of offshore tax havens is an important issue, which of course is why we agreed to participate in a study looking at that issue.

I would like to point out that on February 5 of this year we had officials from the Canada Revenue Agency. Certainly they were very clear that they had adequate resources. What they were really putting forward was interest in the need for tools. I was very pleased to see, of course, in economic action plan 2013, that we've actually moved forward in giving the critical tools the Canada Revenue Agency is going to need to do the job—one example, of course, being the FINTRAC—with a number of very important measures.

So we have had the officials indicating clearly that, please, we need some tools, but we are adequately resourced. The minister has responded to this issue in the House regularly, indicating that since 2006 we have increased by 40% the folks who are focused in on international auditing. We have realigned them so that they are working with public prosecutions in a much more effective way.

I think she has clearly stated that as Canadians change the way they file taxes—I think probably many people electronically file, or have their accountants electronically file—it is very obvious that we need fewer people sitting at keyboards, inputting those thousands and millions of paper returns, and that we have aligned our system to reflect the use of modern technology.

Really, I think we have a very busy committee. We have heard clearly from the minister. We have heard clearly from the representatives at the CRA.

If the NDP wants to include something in the recommendations of the report, certainly they are welcome to have what recommendations they believe are important. But to repeat that same message again and again I don't think is particularly an appropriate use of the committee's time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mrs. McLeod.

Mr. Brison, please.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I would support this motion providing we add an additional meeting to the schedule and it doesn't cannibalize other activities of the committee.

I also think that while it may be self-evident, it bears repetition that we should actually have the minister appear prior to our report on the tax havens.

The third point is that having the officials does not replace the importance of a minister appearing before a committee on an issue like this. It's a fundamental principle of ministerial accountability. This is one of those opportunities to demonstrate that it may, or some may, still exist in Ottawa.

Again, officials appearing before a committee is not a replacement for ministers appearing before a committee and speaking on, representing, their positions on issues of importance.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Mr. Hoback.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I guess I'm just kind of surprised, because we had the bureaucrats within the department here, and I asked them this question about resources over more funding versus more study. They were very clear that they actually needed more legislation, that they needed more tools to move forward on this. Why would we go back down that road when we've already been down there?

I'd just encourage you to go and read the blues. You'd probably get the answer to your question.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Ms. Nash, please.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

This seems to us to be a basic issue about political accountability. The issue of tax havens is important enough to take several sessions of study, by several meetings by this committee. It has captured certainly the attention of the public because of some high-profile cases where whistle-blowers have come forward. It is an issue that is topical and timely, and it is an absolutely valid, fair, and logical question.

How will the minister, not the bureaucrats but the minister, square the circle of reducing 3,000 full-time equivalents in CRA while at the same time beefing up enforcement to crack down on tax havens? I think it's a logical question. I would think the minister would be coming forward voluntarily, would be rushing to the finance committee, to explain that to us and to Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Ms. Nash.

If there are no further speakers, I will go to the question on the motion.

(Motion negatived)

I understand....

Mr. Côté, would you like to present your motion?

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Since everyone has the notice of motion, I will not read it now.

Yesterday, we had our Opposition Day. I will reiterate some of the arguments I presented. I will simply go a bit further by saying that there are dangers to increasing custom duties. A problem already exists. It is a fact that there is a price difference between prices in Canada and the U.S. Unfortunately, this clearly encourages Canadians to cross the border and shop in the U.S. Entire regions are feeling the effects of this.

I want to talk a little bit about one of the aspects of these increases in custom duties. As the member for Beauport—Limoilou, obviously, as I said yesterday, I run into the carts...

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Monsieur Côté, what is allowed is that a member can read a motion into the record.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I see.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Then there's a 48-hour period and then we discuss it. Members don't have to present it to the committee.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

That is fine. You are right.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

They simply submit it to the clerk.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I see.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

In fact, I'm not sure why members are doing—

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you for calling me back to order. You are completely correct. My apologies.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

If you could just read the motion....

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I will read it.

That the Standing Committee on Finance undertake a study on the impact of the custom duties increases proposed in the 2013 Budget on the price gap between Canada and the U.S. and on the policy measures that could be implemented to reduce this gap, and that it report its conclusions to the House.

Once again, I apologize.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you very much.

We will discuss that at a future committee meeting.

Colleagues, we'll take a quick break here. We do have a delegation coming in momentarily.

We'll adjourn this meeting and start the other one right away.