Finance Committee on May 28th, 2013

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I've spent many years in the health care field working with physicians, physiotherapists, speech therapists, and mental health workers. They already are having to do significant differentiation in terms of...and certainly I think they understand the principles behind what was articulated by the officials here, so it should be a fairly seamless transition to this new system.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Is there any further discussion?

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, QC]

Could I ask the experts a question?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

As I've been directed by the committee, independent members can speak only to their amendments. I'll have to follow that unless otherwise directed by the committee.

Is there further discussion? No.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 47 agreed to on division)

(On clause 48)

We have three amendments. I will go to NDP-2 first.

Mr. Côté, you have the floor.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is an amendment that I am particularly committed to. First, the area of psychological care is moving forward by leaps and bounds. There are a huge number of changes. The last update brought with it a lot of changes in diagnostic approaches.

I am particularly close to this because, in my constituency, I have the Institut universitaire en santé mentale de Québec, which covers the whole of eastern Quebec. It is a major institution that also brings together other large organizations such as the Centre de réadaptation en dépendance Ubald-Villeneuve. That is where alcohol, drug and gambling addictions are treated.

As you know, Mr. Chair, the Canadian Psychological Association submitted some recommendations to us. We felt that it was important to clarify the eligibility rules for the GST and HST in this specific area, given the great variety of services offered, the fact that it is difficult to define and, above all, the speed at which things are evolving.

I have lived in Limoilou for 20 years and I have rubbed shoulders with people receiving care at the Institut universitaire en santé mentale de Québec. I have been able to see how vulnerable they are. As is the case with physical health issues, it can be difficult to take advantage of ways, through taxation and otherwise, of saving money or, at least, of getting easier access to services. For people with mental health issues, those difficulties are even greater. They very easily become helpless if they do not get extra assistance.

I feel that this amendment would allow us to get out in front of a phenomenon that is constantly evolving and would do justice to an area of health that is unfortunately still the object of taboos, though they are falling by the wayside more and more.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Monsieur Côté.

Is there further discussion?

We'll take the vote on amendment NDP-2.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

We will go to amendment LIB-3.

Mr. Brison, go ahead, please.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Again, our intention here is to provide clarity and certainty that psychological assessments will remain exempt from GST and HST.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Is there discussion on this point?

Mr. Van Kesteren, go ahead.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Chatham-Kent—Essex, CPC]

Mr. Brison talks about clarity. I think the record has to be clear.

The basic health care services have always been and continue to be exempt under the GST and HST. Budget 2013 clarifies that the exemption for health care services does not apply to reports, examinations, and other services performed solely for non-health purposes. Medical lab work, assessments, and other services performed for health purposes, such as assisting a couple with fertility issues or an individual with mental health issues, are and will continue to be GST- and HST-exempt.

Services such as X-rays, lab tests, or assessments performed strictly for legal purposes will not be eligible for GST and HST health care services exemption, as they are not performed to provide health care to an individual but rather to assist in legal proceedings.

We will be voting against this amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren.

Mr. Brison, is there anything further on this?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I don't understand the rationale of the Conservatives who want to tax the victims of crime who need an assessment in order to prove their case in court. I don't know why the Conservatives insist on being tough on victims of crime. I think that's wrong-headed. We should be supporting victims of crime, not making it more expensive for them to prove their case in court.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Mr. Jean, go ahead on this point.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I'd like to add, just very briefly, Mr. Chair, that every province that I'm aware of has criminal compensation acts that deal with victims of crime. It's very good to see the Liberal Party standing up for victims of crime, but in this particular case he's at a loss, because we didn't....

We heard evidence that some people don't, but 99% of people who are involved in cases like that have it paid for by an insurance company, by their home insurance or by their car insurance. I practised in that area for years, and if that can't cover it, then criminal compensation acts in each of the provinces will deal with it.

I just don't think it's an accurate description by Mr. Brison of what actually takes place on the streets in relation to this particular issue. Certainly I can't see liability being an issue that holds up or that is dealt with by way of a report. It might deal with causation, but it wouldn't deal with liability, this particular thing.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Jean.

Mr. Brison, on this point.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

What Mr. Jean is describing, then, is a de facto off-loading to the provinces for some of these costs. I would wonder whether the government has consulted with the provinces on the increase in their costs to compensate victims of crime who are being taxed by the Conservatives in their efforts to simply prove their cases.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

I guess we're going to go back and forth: Mr. Jean, please.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Chair, I do appreciate his advice. I know after stripping $25 billion in social services from the provinces during the nineties, the Liberals have learned their lesson, and they're trying to put it on us, but...I think it's okay.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Let's keep the debate to the bill and the clause at hand, okay? I suspect....

You want to come back on this, Mr. Brison?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Absolutely.

Certainly I think those were unprecedented times with significant deficits, and of course times when a budget surplus was achieved, which seems elusive in the current context. More than $100 billion was paid down on the national debt during that period.

Hopefully we can get back to that sort of fiscal prudence in the future.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

All in favour of LIB-3?

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

We go now to NDP-3.

Ms. Nash, please.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, we just want to make the point that we believe psychological services should be exempt from the GST and HST. We've heard significant concerns from professionals in the field that this is not a positive change. This may well discourage people from seeking the kind of service they need.

We know from study after study the prevalence of mental health concerns in this country, and Canada does a particularly bad job of addressing mental health services in Canada, not certainly due to any of the work of professionals or community agencies, but because of the lack of government support and outreach in this area.

I know in my own community we have a significant concern that mental health issues are not being addressed after the deinstitutionalization of mental health services in the 1970s. Many people were just put on the street and left to fend for themselves. Community agencies end up picking up the slack, or we find our law enforcement agencies end up dealing with mental health concerns. They do the best job they can, but really, people need to have access to psychological services in a more timely and more accessible way.

Our amendment clarifies the GST/HST eligibility in a manner that's consistent with the recommendations from the Psychological Association. In summary, it's important that Canadians not be discouraged from seeking psychological care when needed.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Mrs. Glover, on this point on the amendment.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I want to clarify to Canadians who are watching just how ill-advised some of our members are. Mental health issues, when they are medical, are in fact covered. They will be and have always been exempt from GST/HST. So the statements made by my colleague are inaccurate, and false, in fact. People will not be resisting getting treatment because of this, because this does not affect treatment at all in any way, shape, or form. I want to make that clear.

On this side, of course, the government has sitting at the table a police officer, a nurse, and a defence lawyer, who have all been involved in cases that were cited here. It is absolutely untrue that victims of crime and people who suffer with mental health issues are not going to be exempt from GST/HST for medical purposes. I just want Canadians to know what's being said is absolutely false. It's fearmongering, and I feel for people who are now starting to second-guess whether or not they can get treatment exempt from GST/HST.

We encourage them to get treatment; it will be exempt from GST/HST. But when you provide assessments for legal purposes, that is what won't be covered.

Lay this to rest and stop scaring Canadians.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

We'll go back to Ms. Nash, please.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

While we especially appreciate the performance of the member opposite in her lecturing tone, once again, and while she pretends to be more expert in all areas than the experts who come before our committee, let me repeat what the experts who came before our committee said. They expressed concerns about not exempting psychological services and assessments from the GST/HST. We heard that testimony before the committee.

Our amendment would in fact seek to clarify that eligibility. If professionals in the field are raising concerns about it, in spite of the undoubted vast expertise of the member opposite, we have to take that concern to heart. What we would want to do is simply clarify what is covered, what is eligible, so that Canadians would not be discouraged from seeking psychological care when it's needed.