Finance Committee on May 28th, 2013

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Amendment NDP-15 would delay until at least 2018 the coming into force of Bill C-60's clauses with respect to reviewing the thresholds.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you very much.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 154 agreed to)

(Clauses 155 to 160 inclusive agreed to)

(On clause 161)

We have three NDP amendments: NDP-16, NDP-17, and NDP-18.

Ms. Nash, you can address them separately or together, as you wish.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I'll address them separately, Mr. Chair.

I'll speak to amendment NDP-16. This clause concerns the temporary foreign worker program. Bill C-60 introduces the ability of the minister of CIC to revoke a work permit and for the minister of HRSDC to “revoke”, “suspend”, or “refuse to process” an opinion, and that those ministers shall set out instructions in the justifications for such revocation.

We've raised this many times in the House, but generally our concern about the temporary foreign worker program is that it's bringing in foreign workers to work for less pay, rather than giving these jobs to Canadians. We know there are some labour shortages in certain parts of the country, and yet there are many other parts of the country, including right here in Ontario, where there is persistent high unemployment. As I described with the Electro-Motive situation, through a lockout and a plant closure after a foreign takeover that was encouraged by this government, people's standard of living went down dramatically.

The changes the government is making in this act are tinkering with the temporary foreign worker legislation. They don't go far enough. We need to include guarantees against further abuses to the temporary foreign worker program. We have to prevent it from being used as a substitute for hiring Canadians and paying them a decent wage at the prevailing rate. If the ministers had been doing their jobs correctly in the first place, they certainly would not have been granting temporary work visas and giving bad labour market opinions, which allowed these abuses to take place.

We have three amendments to this clause that will better protect Canadians from being displaced and ensure that temporary foreign workers are not paid at a lower rate.

I'll deal with amendment NDP-16 first. It would require that HRSDC refuse to process a labour market opinion where it is advertised at a salary below the prevailing wage. Canadians may ask how they would be doing that now, but we've certainly seen instances where that has happened, and this government recently made a change that allowed temporary foreign workers to be paid 15% less than the prevailing wage. That is a low-wage strategy; it depresses wages for all workers. Recently the government rolled back this program they had earlier introduced. We believe if the government would just read its talking points about long-term prosperity, they would include people who are being undermined by temporary foreign workers.

We think that depressing Canadian wages is the wrong way to go. We want to make sure that this downward pressure on Canadian wages stops, that Canadian workers always get first crack at the job, and that the wages offered in cases where temporary foreign workers are needed are at the prevailing wage or above, but certainly not below, because it's just too attractive to employers to bring in temporary foreign workers and pay them less than Canadians are being paid.

That's the basis for our amendment, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Ms. Nash.

We'll go to Mr. Van Kesteren and then Mr. Brison.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Well, I thank the member for her explanation.

I want to say first of all that in my region of the country this is a very valuable tool, and I'm quite familiar with it.

I may intervene on some of the other amendments. At this point I want to talk very briefly about how a wage is determined. I can assure the member that somebody working in the farm sector, for instance, is not just paid that wage. There's transportation for people, in our case from the Caribbean. It also includes health care costs and housing costs. These are all taken into consideration. Those wage guidelines are published. They're published first, and when the farmers have no success, they're allowed to use foreign workers.

I know that—before anybody intervenes on the foreign worker and the farm labourer—there are differences, but there are also areas in which they're similar.

The other thing I'd point out is that this is a very necessary part of our employment. We know we have severe labour shortages. I made reference to my riding, and I know there are ridings in NDP-held territories. As a matter of fact, it has become evident that NDP members have received requests to help get foreign workers too. So it's a reality in the current labour market. I know we have the checks and balances in place to ensure that the wages offered are also offered to Canadians and that those wages are determined to be fair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren.

I have Mr. Brison, Ms. McLeod, and then Ms. Nash.

Mr. Brison.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I think, actually, this is a reasonable amendment.

I have the same concern Mr. Van Kesteren expressed, particularly around the horticultural sector, in which temporary foreign workers are an essential part of production, not just in Canada but in other countries as well. I don't believe this amendment would hinder the capacity of the horticultural sector in the Annapolis Valley, as an example, or in the Niagara region or somewhere else within Canada, to attain the temporary foreign workers it needs to fulfill harvest. It's my understanding that in many cases, in fact, temporary foreign workers within the horticultural sector are paid at rates that are competitive with the prevailing wage rates in the communities wherein the activity is occurring. It boils down to the availability of people to do the work at that time, as opposed to a wage issue.

I'm satisfied that the NDP amendment does not prevent farmers or food processing people in the horticultural sector from attaining the workers they would need for the harvest. I'm comfortable with the NDP amendment, and I do not feel it would hinder the capacity of the horticultural sector to get the workers it needs from the temporary foreign worker program.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Brison.

Ms. McLeod, please, go ahead on this.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I certainly want to make note that a number of years ago now, a number of people came to me and indicated that as the labour market opinions and the prevailing wage were set, in actual fact they were having to pay more than they were paying their Canadian employees because of regional averages. So this was not actually a deflationary measure. It was certainly seen as an opportunity to actually create some balance, rather than having HRSDC determine that someone needed to be paid x, which was more than Canadian employees were being paid.

That being said, it certainly became apparent that adjustments had to be made. The adjustments have been made, and I think this new legislation really reflects an important move forward.

We won't be supporting the amendment by the NDP.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Ms. McLeod.

I have Ms. Nash, and then I will go to Mr. Rankin.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I want to clarify this. I'm sure Mr. Van Kesteren wasn't attempting to confuse the farm workers programs with the temporary foreign worker program. In his area, he has manufacturing and other industries as well as the agricultural programs that he's familiar with. Nothing in these changes would impede in any way the valuable work of farm workers, who for many years have come to Canada and helped us in the agricultural sector. Nothing in this proposed amendment would inhibit an employer from hiring temporary foreign workers where there is a legitimate skills shortage. What this amendment is aimed at is employers who have used the temporary foreign worker program to undermine the prevailing wage here in Canada.

We've all read about some high-profile cases of this, and we understand how viscerally Canadians feel about it. We saw the reaction to the Royal Bank when it was found that they were laying off highly skilled people. There were a very small number of temporary foreign workers brought in, and a huge reaction came forward. I don't want any confusion. We're not against immigration. We support newcomers to Canada, and we want them to have all the rights to become Canadian citizens that others have had in years past. We support the farm worker program and we support bringing in temporary foreign workers where there is a legitimate skills shortage. We do not support a program that undermines Canadian jobs or undermines the Canadian standard of living. We do not support a program that is more an exploitive measure than anything else. That's what this measure and the changes presented here are designed to prevent.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Speaking to points not made previously, we have Mr. Rankin.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The point of this is to take away the discretion of the department. It provides that the government would not be able to process an application at a salary less than the prevailing wage rate.

In response to my colleague, Ms. McLeod, there may be circumstances where more money is paid. But the point of this is to clarify that this should not, must not, happen. I know I've received more calls and angry letters against this Conservative policy than I have for anything else since I became a member. People want this clarity. All this does is provide clarity.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

I have Mr. Van Kesteren on this point.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Ms. Nash makes a point that is dealt with in division 9. That was my second point. Division 9 contains amendments to the immigration and refugee program to allow authorities to revoke work permits issued by Citizenship and Immigration Canada and to:

increase the Government’s authority to suspend and revoke work permits and Labour Market Opinions (LMOs) if the program is being misused;

When that occurs, this legislation gives the authority to make amendments. This is found in the current legislation.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren.

I'm going to go to the vote on NDP-16.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Do you want to deal with NDP-17 and NDP-18 separately?

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Yes. NDP-17 adds some important conditions to consider when revoking or suspending a temporary foreign worker permit or a labour market opinion. Most important, it would ensure that no Canadian worker is displaced by a temporary foreign worker and that temporary foreign workers are only allowed where a legitimate labour shortage exists. It's putting into an amendment the point I made in my previous intervention.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

On this, we have Mr. Van Kesteren.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

The amendments will ensure that the foreign worker program is used as intended to fill acute skills shortages on a temporary basis. These provisions are found in this legislation.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Ms. Nash.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

NDP 18 will require that the minister report to Parliament when a work permit is suspended or when an opinion is suspended, revoked, or refused for processing. The aim of this amendment is to make sure that the minister reports to Parliament when exercising this new power. We've already seen some serious missteps when it comes to the temporary foreign worker program, and we believe that adequate parliamentary oversight would greatly improve the administration of this program.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Can we have a vote on this?

Mr. Van Kesteren.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Just very briefly, on the government's side, we feel that the legislation as presented will have those checks and balances—the proper checks and balances in place. So as such we will be voting against this amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren.

Do you want to speak to this, Mr. Rankin?

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

We realize that the government's position is that there are checks and balances. This is intended to provide parliamentary oversight and greater accountability to Canadians, which is something the government, I know, has championed in the past, at least. Not providing Parliament with this kind of information seems surprising, that the government would resist it.