Evidence of meeting #16 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was infrastructure.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Gordon, every union leader who has come before this committee has been asked the same question by government members. That question is, do you support unions paying taxes? To a certain extent we are all partisan at the committee, but this question seems to be getting out there a little too far. It seems to me the Conservatives don't understand that if you were to tax the union dues that fund your organizations, that's double-taxing your members. I wouldn't mind a comment on that.
But it also seems strange to me to hear people talking about how the conditions that will protect private sector jobs can only be reached by removing public sector jobs, so that you have put someone else on the unemployment line.
Do you feel that the Conservative government has been transparent in the way they've gone about setting into motion these cuts?
October 18th, 2011 / 12:30 p.m.
National President, Executive Office, Public Service Alliance of Canada
No, I don't think there has been a great deal of transparency to date about cuts.
For example, I happened to meet with the President of the Treasury Board, and we talked about my asking which programs they are looking at right now. He said they really don't know.
Well, we can talk about the programs, but once he has them on the table and they look at the programs, if they cut them or eliminate them completely, that will tell me where the job losses or the hits are going to be in communities.
What they're looking at is areas in which services are provided in communities. We have no clue in that. And they're going to outside experts, paying $90,000 a day to those experts, to assist them.
We have plenty of experts who are workers in the public service who have thoughts on that. When I asked him about that, he said they were asking those folks. I just happened to have been all across Canada speaking at a lot of our conventions where our members are, and I asked them whether they had been asked yet by their bosses how they can help. I got limited responses. In one convention of 500, five hands went up.
So they're not talking at the workplace, they're not talking to the people who are doing the job, they're going to outside experts—and I don't know where they get their expertise.
Transparency is not a word I would use in dealing with them.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Jackson, the pooled registered pension plan, PRPP, struck me as interesting. We heard that for the first time today.
We realize that 60-some percent of Canadians have no pension plan. There was an effort on the part of the government to move forward with the PRPP, but to my mind it's not much more than a glorified RRSP. It's subject to the same risks in the marketplace as RRSPs. I understand that the Canadian Labour of Congress has been in support of a phased-in increase to the Canada Pension Plan. In fact, the NDP, and I myself as critic, have been proposing this since 2009.
Would you advise the committee on the benefits you would see to increasing CPP? Also, do you see liabilities with the PRPP beyond what we've already noted?
12:35 p.m.
Chief Economist, Canadian Labour Congress
I think the two major virtues of expanding the Canada Pension Plan are that there would be an increased employer contribution as well as an increased employee contribution; it would be mandatory on both sides. I think there is a lot of evidence that if you leave it to individuals to save on a voluntary basis, they will not save enough for retirement. We can debate the merits of those.
The second key point would be that the Canada Pension Plan is an extremely well-run pension plan at very low cost, and we'd certainly be very concerned that while PRPPs may have a somewhat lower cost structure than individual RRSPs, they're still going to be higher-cost. I hate to take a shot, but there is a considerable amount of profit earned in the financial sector from running these plans, and we can really reduce that through a public sector alternative.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
I just want to congratulate the Federation of Canadian Municipalities on the report on our infrastructure problems and the fact that it should be addressed. It's been quoted many times in this place. I'd love to ask you questions, but I'm out of time.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair. I want to thank all the witnesses for being here this morning.
My first question is to Ms. Pohlmann from the CFIB. How many members do you have?
12:35 p.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
One hundred and eight thousand.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
I understand that a practice of the CFIB is to be in constant communication with your members, and you're polling them all regularly.
12:35 p.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
That's correct.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
Some have suggested that the government needs to raise corporate taxes. What would your members say about that?
12:35 p.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Our members would not be supportive of raising corporate taxes at this time. I think it's something they would find difficult to absorb, given all the other things they are facing in this economy. So that would be something our members would not support. We've asked them in the past and they certainly don't feel that this would be the appropriate way to go.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
12:35 p.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
It would bring instability. They're planning for a certain type of taxation right now. It would make them think about what other options they might have for hiring or investments, because now more money is going into taxation rather than into their businesses.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
Thank you.
Dr. Haggie, we heard this morning that the nineties were a dark decade for social transfers to the provinces, owing to the cutbacks that the government at the time implemented on the backs of the provinces. Could you comment on that and also on our government's commitment of 6% increases in the social transfer?
12:35 p.m.
President, Canadian Medical Association
There is some evidence that health care delivery at the provincial level suffered considerably in the nineties. It was squeezed from a variety of points of view, not just fiscal. There was also the unfortunate exercise of cutting medical school enrollments, so we were nowhere near self-sufficient in physician graduates. That's improved. We're back up to 2,500 Canadians studying medicine in Canada. Interestingly enough, there are still 3,500 Canadians studying in offshore universities.
So the ground has been recovered. I think the advantage of predictable funding is much appreciated by the provincial government—it makes planning a lot easier. It's not just about the dollars, though; it's about how you spend them and what you get for the money you spend. That has to be the emphasis as you look to 2014, because 2014 is just a weigh point. I would see Canada needing to have a goal, perhaps something along the lines of having the best health care in the world within a reasonable time, say, 2025. And 2014 is just a stepping stone to that, but it's a crucial point. You have to build the right foundations. You have to ask yourself seriously what you want for your money and what you want your money to buy. You can't be looking at just the numbers themselves.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
Thank you.
Ms. Pohlmann, there is only one taxpayer. Let me be straight with you, do corporations pay taxes?
12:40 p.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Certainly our members pay taxes—there's no doubt about it. It's small and medium-sized enterprises.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
12:40 p.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Oh, absolutely. They'll incorporate it into their costs, and they'll try to figure out ways to make it work.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
Correct.
That bird has been plucked, right? I mean, there aren't that many feathers left on that taxpaying bird.
12:40 p.m.
Vice-President, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
I would tell you right now that a lot of small business owners are struggling. They're doing okay, because they've gotten through the tough period, but they don't want to see increases in taxes coming at this time, whether it's corporate income taxes or payroll taxes.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON
Mr. Jackson, the IMF study that you talked about where Canada will increase unemployment by one-half a percent, what study was that?
12:40 p.m.
Chief Economist, Canadian Labour Congress
I don't have the reference. I'll provide it to the committee. The IMF study shows generally what discretionary cuts in public expenditure mean for jobs and growth. They also provide estimates of the effects of projected changes in government spending, which they do on an all-government basis, so it's federal and provincial.
