Finance Committee on Oct. 19th, 2011

[Gilles Patry]

The report released earlier this week by Tom Jenkins, the panel on the funding of R and D in the private sector, goes some way to addressing some of the elements that need to be addressed. It's a challenge that Canada has faced for many years. Our agencies--and I have the pleasure of having with me the representatives of each of the three granting councils--have programs that are targeted at trying to bring industry a little closer to academia in order to foster more interaction. We could certainly engage in that level of discussion a little later.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Brison.

We'll go to Mr. Van Kesteren, please.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for appearing.

To continue with that line, Mr. Patry, I believe it was 2007 that we travelled with the industry committee to visit some of those spots, the University of Saskatchewan in particular. You had an industrial park nearby. We saw some interesting things. We all share the same concern Mr. Brison was talking about, that crossover. Can you tell us about how that has been working? Are there any new developments?

[Gilles Patry]

I have the experts from the other councils. We have Suzanne Fortier, who is the president of NSERC, the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council; Alain Beaudet, the president of CIHR, the Canadian Institutes of Health Research; and Carmen Charette, the senior vice-president at the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council. We've agreed that we would pass on some of these questions to our colleagues, and I think this might be an appropriate place for Suzanne to talk about the relationship between the private sector and the academy, and also about the partnerships that have been established on campuses.

You're talking about the University of Saskatchewan at Saskatoon. There are tremendous partnerships on that campus, like the Canadian Light Source, where the private sector benefits in part from having access to Canada's world-class synchrotron.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

We're talking about taxpayers' money, and we have spent a substantial amount of cash with those research foundations. Can you tell us about some of the money that was spent, what the government has done, and some of the results that you're seeing?

[Dr. Suzanne Fortier, President, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada]

These are a lot of questions. I'll start at the highest level, which is why are we behind in innovation.

Lots of studies--including one from the Council of Canadian Academies--believe the problem is mainly in business innovation; that is, management making the right decisions to advance their business. That has to do with all sorts of things, including where you invest your dollars, getting state-of-the-art information, application of new technologies, tools for the industry. The biggest problem is not with R and D but with these other factors.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Can you give us some success stories?

[Dr. Suzanne Fortier]

There are many success stories. I'll talk specifically about where we see our role, because innovation has many players, the most important being the business sector itself. We're focusing on creating partnerships, linking the talent that we have in colleges and universities with the needs of the private sector. From our perspective, significant progress has occurred in increasing the reach to small and medium-sized enterprises, which form a large portion of Canadian industry. We've always had strong interactions with the large industries, but small and medium-sized firms is where we need to put more effort, and that has been a focus.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

So you've found that the government's endeavours have been successful. You've encountered some success.

[Dr. Suzanne Fortier]

Well, I'll give you--

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

You could go on a little bit, but just a yes or no answer, please.

[Dr. Suzanne Fortier]

Yes.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Good.

Just very quickly, Mr. Fried, I think we need to always point out, when we talk about the commitment of the government through aid, that Canadians in general are very generous. I think in comparison to the rest of the world, we've exceed that generosity.

Would you agree with that, too, that although...? It's the same taxpayer that ultimately is giving that money. It's not a generous government; it's the generous Canadians. So would you agree, too, that there's an element of generosity not experienced in other countries, given by Canadians? I know that's the case with CARE--they've been in front of foreign affairs--World Vision, Samaritan's Purse.... Would you agree with that statement?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Just a brief response, please.

[Mark Fried]

I would say that Canadians are invariably generous in responding to an emergency. When an emergency hits, people open their hearts and their wallets.

The long-term investment to address climate change and poverty beyond emergency response is something that falls to government. We would hope government would meet that responsibility. Canadians expect government to do that.

But it's not a question of generosity. The generosity comes--

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Ten seconds.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

The government's priorities have been laid out, and that is to children and to mothers. In that respect, those needs are being met.

[Mark Fried]

Absolutely. Those are good priorities.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Marston, please.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair

Mrs. Worsfold, witnesses before our committee in recent days have talked about the fact that 20% of the cost of health care is directly relative to people who live in poverty and the results of poverty. In my own community of Hamilton, the social planning and research council says one in five people live in poverty.

Now, my wife was a nurse for 37 years. She did get to retire, by the way; I get to go to work here.

[Pauline Worsfold]

Lucky her.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

But she observed on a day-to-day basis the results of poverty. And she said to me one time--and I never thought of it in these terms--“The 12-hour shifts we were working, we could take 20% off them if we could address poverty”. I'd like your reaction to that statement.

[Pauline Worsfold]

I would have to concur with your wife about the poverty situation. It's directly related and linked to the social determinants of health, which we've heard others speak about today, and those are food, shelter, clothing, education, nutrition, those types of social determinants of health, whether you end up being poor or not. The fact is, people who are poor have less healthy lives overall and at times less healthy lifestyles.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Mr. Patry, you seem to be fairly popular today, so I'll add one more to the list. We have a debate between the opposition and the government on how far to go with tax breaks, the corporate tax breaks. The ones we've seen are taking about $16 billion a year out of the fiscal capacity of our government to address Oxfam's requests or others.

In Hamilton you know that CANMET is there. You know that right next door to McMaster University, one of our great universities--I have no problem saying that--we have a steel industry that has had some difficulties in the last number of years.

We have said repeatedly here that perhaps a government would be wise to think about moving out a bit the 2015 deadline for bringing the budget back to balance. That would allow opportunity for some further investment in areas. As well, from our standpoint, we say that in terms of the next tax break they're giving in 2012, they should cancel that. It would leave them the room needed to do so many things. I'd like your response to that.

[Gilles Patry]

It's difficult for me to comment. I can comment on McMaster, Mr. Marston, because I had the pleasure of spending ten wonderful years at that university as a faculty member, and I had the opportunity to also launch a private business that is still operating in downtown Hamilton.

It's difficult for me to comment on the policy side of what you're referring to, obviously. Trying to identify sources of funding in order to support an initiative like the one you've described is obviously interesting. Whatever we can do to foster this rapprochement between the private sector and the discovery and the knowledge creation will serve Canadians very well in the future. It might be seen as a cost right now; it might be delaying some current revenues, but it should pay off. And it will pay off in the future. We're seeing it in all of our agencies right now in terms of the impact of the investments that have been made over the last 10 or 12 years, and the systematic continued investments in research and development that have been made at the granting councils and at the Canada Foundation for Innovation. They are now starting to pay off.

Canada is only very recently in the research and development game; it's only in the last 12, 13, or 14 years. Now is the time to sustain the investment so that Canadians can reap the benefits in the future.