Finance Committee on Oct. 20th, 2011

[Nobina Robinson]

Thank you very much for your question. Indeed there are vast opportunities in the areas where Canada has had either historical or recent industrial strength. Both in my day job and in the work I've just finished, I think sometimes we focus too much on chasing other countries and the new great good that the IT sector will bring and have overlooked some of our endowed abilities to produce equipment and technology and processes to harness what we already have, where we have expertise already.

So yes, certainly the nine members I represent are leaders in providing tradespeople. There are 35,000 apprentices currently enrolled in just these nine colleges, and they would be in a whole set of the areas that are involved in needing equipment—creating equipment, prototyping new equipment, scaling up new processes of use of equipment. Yes, I think that's vast.

I'd like to just make a point from yesterday's announcement on the shipbuilding. Out in B.C., and I'm sure this is the case for the east as well, the contract to Seaspan will create the need for millwrights, welders, and shipbuilders, and not just them, but also people who have to deal with occupational safety and health and marine designers of all kinds. And BCIT will be there helping to create those workers. I think you will see that this is a real example.

My point to you is that apprentices are no longer employees; they are learners and they need to be treated as such.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

I'm a big fan of colleges—and of universities as well. In my riding of Chatham—Kent—Essex, the infrastructure money in the Building Canada Fund resulted in some excellent expansions in that facility. It will result in more apprenticeships and more tradespeople.

Can you talk about the impact this has had on some of your colleges? Traditionally, the federal government doesn't become involved in bricks and mortar, but because of what happened in 2008 we had this rare opportunity to make some important investments.

Would you tell us a little about those and what impact they've had?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Make it a very brief response.

[Nobina Robinson]

You're referring to the knowledge infrastructure program?

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Yes.

[Nobina Robinson]

Every one of my members benefited to some great degree. You're right; it's about bricks and mortar. I think it's a misnomer to think it paid for research facilities. It didn't; it paid for bricks and mortar and deferred maintenance. It's a very important program.

All our colleges of Polytechnics Canada have completed those projects on time.

It's a very important one-time investment. I think we need to invest in the soft side now, in the people.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Marston now, please, for five minutes.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I'm going to be as quick as I can, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Aiken, I agree with you 100%, and I support your request and I want to be very clear. I'm just going to make a couple of comments before questions.

Mr. Swedlove, concerning your conversation about the PRPP—I'm the critic for pensions for the NDP—we have been promoting the expansion of the core assets of the CPP in a phased-in fashion in order to increase the payout of the CPP in about 30 years' time, because sixty-some percent of Canadians have no pension. The PRPP addresses a portion of that. Our concern is with the different case with the defined benefit plans and the fact that CPP is better protected in market swings.

I'm not really asking a question. I would like you afterwards, if you would, to send me a little more information. You talked about 2040 and the $750 billion investment and its impact. If you could give me two paragraphs on what that is sometime and send it to me or to the committee, it's something we need to consider as a committee.

Now, Mr. Lazar, the NDP has proposed the greening of homes and buildings in Canada and saying we should be investing in this. A spinoff that we see from it as well is that we have the baby boomers retiring and we face a lack of technical expertise that could be addressed by this. We proposed getting into it at a $2 billion level. We would have electricians and carpenters and a number of other people.

Another thing we have to keep in mind is the first nations homes, which are in the worst condition of housing stock anywhere in this country. This is in line with what you've said.

If you would like to comment on that further, feel free.

[Avrim Lazar]

We are strong supporters of an enhanced first nations building program. It is something we think would benefit both the first nations communities and of course the rural communities that are producing the lumber.

The greening of Canada's homes obviously would be of great advantage to everyone. Those who know the carbon footprint of wood would tell you that it is far lower than that of any of the competing building materials, and a wood-based building program would be hugely useful.

So we're generally supportive, though where $2 billion should be spent and where it shouldn't be spent is a larger issue of balancing hard choices.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Sure.

Mr. Passmore, you talked about making stuff. Hamilton made stuff for generations. I took Jack Layton to Burlington Street, and he said “turn in a circle”, where we lost 50,000 jobs in this, our own community, in short order.

We have a concern about the fact that it appears the government is opening the door to giving away resources without value added on those resources. A critical piece for us is to find a national strategy for manufacturing to tie this together. I'd like your opinions on that.

[Jeff Passmore]

That was basically the essential, sole ask of the New Economy Alliance: how do we work together as government and industry to figure out what that strategy is going to be?

Interestingly, there's a clear need seen by government, because as soon as the New Economy Alliance formed, which was only last May, we were approached by Agriculture Canada saying they needed somebody to talk to and that they would like to talk to us, because they didn't know whom to interface with in industry.

Our ask is that we sit down together, government and industry, and figure out the exact answer to the question you're asking: how do we assure that we add value to Canada's vast natural resources? We're envied around the world for the natural resources we have. We have to add value to those resources and then export that added value, not just the raw materials.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Clearly we need a national manufacturing strategy.

[Jeff Passmore]

Yes.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, sir.

I'm fine. I'll pass on the rest, because I fit it all in as quickly as I could.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

All right, thank you, Mr. Marston. That was very efficient.

We'll go to Mr. Adler, please.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all of the witnesses for being here today. Those were very interesting presentations by all of you.

I want to ask my first question to Mr. Swedlove. In researching for today's panel, I came across some interesting information. You did a poll earlier this year as an association on PRPPs, and I'm going to just quote from it. It showed that “90% of Canadians said they support the federal government's proposal for employers to have better access to pension plans through...PRPPs.” You went on to say, “It is rare to see a public policy idea receive virtual unanimous approval with the public.”

Would you comment on that poll that you did? And if you could expand on it a little bit, that would be terrific.

[Frank Swedlove]

Thank you, Mr. Adler.

We were quite surprised by the results also. The poll showed that there's a recognition by Canadians that they would like to have more and better opportunities to save for retirement.

The biggest issue we see, and this is identified in Jack Mintz's report, which was done for a number of governments, is that the real gap that exists is in the private sector, where more than 50% of Canadians do not have access to saving for retirement at the workplace, which is the easiest place to save.

Our proposal and the proposal of a number of other sectors is that Canadians should have the opportunity to save for retirement where it's easiest to do so, and I think that's been recognized by the public in the survey we did.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Mr. Lazar, it's interesting to see you again. You probably don't remember me, but I was in your class at Carleton grad school, in the school of public administration, for organizational behaviour.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I did get an A, so I'm not complaining.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Our government has been very supportive of the pulp and paper industry with actions like encouraging the two-year extension of the accelerated capital cost allowance. Some have called for increased taxes on corporations and increasing the size of government. I'm just wondering how an increase in taxes would affect your industry and also how lower taxes help.

[Avrim Lazar]

Let's talk about the jobs in this industry. The only way we can create and keep jobs, and avoid losing jobs, is to be more competitive than the Americans, the Europeans, and the Brazilians. That's the only way. We sell almost everything we make to global markets, so we have to be competitive. The only way to be competitive is to get cash to invest in modernizing the mills. Cash is not a very nice thing. Global capital has no loyalty; it goes to where there's a fast return. Accelerated capital depreciation gives a faster return and brings the cash in. That cash modernizes the mills, which allows us to keep people working.

Higher taxes have the opposite impact. Even in the companies that belong to my association, most have mills in many countries. They have a pool of cash where they have to decide whether to give it to a mill in Georgia or in France or in Uruguay or in B.C., Quebec, or Ontario. The answer is not based upon loyalty or love or anything like that; it's on speed of return. Where will they get the money back? Taxes have a big impact on their perception of that. That's clear enough.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have 20 seconds.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I have a quick question.

You mentioned three-dimensional pulp. What company is doing that, and where is it located?