Evidence of meeting #48 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was banks.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tyler Sommers  Coordinator, Canadian Community Reinvestment Coalition
David Phillips  President and Chief Executive Officer, Credit Union Central of Canada
Douglas Melville  Ombudsman, Chief Executive Officer, Ombudsman for Banking Services and Investments
Jean-François Vinet  Financial Service Analyst, Representation and Research Department, Option consommateurs

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I call this meeting to order. This is the 48th meeting of the Standing Committee on Finance. I want to apologize to all our witnesses, both here in Ottawa and in Montreal. We were detained in the House of Commons by a vote. I very much appreciate your patience in staying here with us.

We have the orders of the day, today, pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, February 14, Bill S-5, An Act to amend the law governing financial institutions and to provide for related and consequential matters.

We have four witnesses here to present on the bill. First, we have the Canadian Community Reinvestment Coalition. Second, we have the Credit Union Central of Canada. Third, we have the Ombudsman for Banking Services and Investments.

Lastly, from Montreal, we welcome Option consommateurs.

You will each have up to five minutes for an opening statement, and then we will have questions from members.

We'll begin with Mr. Sommers, please, with your opening presentation.

4:35 p.m.

Tyler Sommers Coordinator, Canadian Community Reinvestment Coalition

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for inviting me, and to members for having me speak here today.

I'm representing the Canadian Community Reinvestment Coalition, which was established in 1997 and is made up of over 100 citizens' organizations across Canada. Our membership is approximately three million Canadian citizens.

Recently, we called on the federal finance minister, Jim Flaherty, to work with opposition parties to create effective banking and financial institutions by requiring banks to prove, through an independent audit, that their credit card and other consumer and small to medium-sized business loan interest rates do not amount to gouging; and, through empowering the Competition Bureau, to evaluate and publicly report on the number of business loans applied for, approved, and rejected. We also called for specific categories of business borrowers, and an investigation into the level of competition throughout the country.

Canada's big six banks have reported new record first-quarter profits totalling over $7 billion, which is up 5.3% compared to 2011, and have done this while raising bank fees and cutting jobs in the sector, from approximately 305,000 in June 2010 to approximately 296,000 in September 2011. Canada's wage gap is also growing to the highest it has been in 30 years.

Canada's big banks also reported a total of more than $16 billion in losses and writedowns in 2008, primarily because of risky investments. Changes are needed now more than ever to ensure that banks don't increase their rates and fees to recoup their self-inflicted losses. We're also asking for increased accountability in return for the almost $200 billion in support the federal government provided to them from 2008 to 2009.

We're of the opinion that no corporation has the right to gouge or unjustifiably cut services, especially when providing an essential service, which banking is. To help Canadians overall and to ensure that big banks serve everyone fairly, at fair prices, we're asking the government to facilitate the creation of a national financial consumer watchdog group, and to require independent audits to determine if banks are reaping excessive profits through gouging interest rates, fees, and arbitrarily cutting credit services and services for some customers and communities.

To ensure effective ongoing industry accountability, the government can require banks to prove their loan investment interest rates are fair, which I have previously elaborated on, by auditing the lending and competition levels, which was recommended by the 1998 MacKay task force and the House and Senate committees as well; and by requiring financial investment companies to distribute a pamphlet in their mailings, which invites customers and investors to join a citizen watchdog group to watch over the financial industry and the federal government.

The recommendations the CCRC has with regard to regulating Canada's banks and investment companies are: to require banks to refund customers if the FCAC shows, through their investigation into gouging, that there has been gouging in the past decade; to either require banks to open branches or subsidize the opening of credit unions, if the Competition Bureau shows a lack of competition in any area; and to require banks to provide detailed information on loans and investments to customers, and to require corrective action and deny any mergers if the takeovers are not meeting the customers' needs, which is what currently occurs in the U.S.

We also recommend that the government award money-handling and credit card business to the banks that best serve the people, as every government in Canada contracts to banks; facilitate the creation of a financial consumer organization and individual investor organization through, as I mentioned, a pamphlet in their mailings; and require banks to give customers access to their money as soon as the cheque clears—in Canada, we have about a 98% clear rate in a day.

In addition, we recommend the government increase the maximum penalty for violating the Bank Act to about $50 million. Currently, the maximum penalty is $200,000, and we believe that the government proposal to increase it to $500,000 is still much too low to serve as a deterrent. We also recommend that they require the FCAC to disclose the name of violators in every case. Currently it's only if they prosecute, and that doesn't happen very often.

Finally, we recommend they ensure that all federally regulated banks are required to use the Ombudsman for Banking Services and Investments to ensure consistency and independence in the resolution of customer complaints.

That's all I have. Thanks very much.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much for your presentation.

We'll hear from Mr. Phillips now, please.

4:40 p.m.

David Phillips President and Chief Executive Officer, Credit Union Central of Canada

Mr. Chair, members of Parliament, thank you for inviting us to share with you some comments on Bill S-5, the Financial System Review Act.

My name is David Phillips, and I'm president and CEO of Credit Union Central of Canada, also known as Canadian Central. Canadian Central is the national trade association for its member organizations, and through them, 368 Canadian credit unions. Credit unions are full-service cooperative financial institutions that are owned by their member customers.

Canada's credit unions operate a branch network with more than 1,700 locations. These branches serve more than five million members and employ almost 26,000 people across Canada. Almost one-quarter of credit union locations serve small communities where they are the only financial services supplier in terms of bricks-and-mortar presence in that community.

Credit unions in Canada are provincially regulated financial institutions. However, Canadian Central is incorporated as an association under the Cooperative Credit Associations Act. As such, Canadian Central is itself a federal financial institution with a corporate charter that is extended by this legislation. Further, all of our provincial central members have opted to be regulated under the Cooperative Credit Associations Act.

In 2010 the credit union system welcomed provisions in the Jobs and Economic Growth Act that made amendments to the Bank Act to allow for the establishment of federal credit unions. We are currently providing input to the Department of Finance in connection with regulations that would allow credit unions the opportunity to operate a federal charter under the Bank Act.

From the perspective of credit union centrals and potential federal credit unions, we have an interest in Bill S-5. There are three matters we wish to address in connection with the bill.

First, we want to indicate our support for the proposed amendments to the Canadian Payments Act that will allow a federal credit union to participate in the governance of the Canadian Payments Association as part of a cooperatives class of CPA member financial institutions.

The amendments will allow federal credit unions to vote for CPA directors who represent cooperative financial institutions. Without this amendment, federal credit unions would not have a real voice in the governance of the Canadian Payments Association, because they would be nominally represented by directors who are elected from the commercial banks.

Placing the federal credit union in the cooperatives class will preserve and strengthen the credit union system's representation at the Canadian Payments Association. It ensures that a federal credit union will be represented by a director who can bring the perspective of cooperative financial institutions to CPA matters.

Secondly, we wish to indicate our support for the proposed amendment to paragraph 376(1)(g) of the Cooperative Credit Associations Act. This amendment increases the powers of associations incorporated under the act to market and to sell their technology services. It will allow a credit union central to provide payment technology services to any member of the Canadian Payments Association, thereby introducing more competition into this market.

Finally, we are not so pleased about the proposed amendments to sections 425 and 428 of the Bank Act in Bill S-5. These proposed Bank Act amendments have the effect of reversing two recent Supreme Court of Canada decisions in which the court determined that an unperfected personal property security interest held by a credit union had priority over a subsequent Bank Act security interest held by the bank.

While we understand the federal government's wish to clarify the situation resulting from the court's decision, we seriously question why a special security mechanism that is only available to the banks should continue to be retained in the Bank Act.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

You have one minute left.

4:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Credit Union Central of Canada

David Phillips

One of the goals of modern provincial Personal Property Security Act legislation is to bring greater certainty and predictability to the resolution of priority competitions between secured lenders, and this legislation is largely successful in achieving this objective.

The continued existence of Bank Act security undermines this purpose, since Bank Act security cannot easily be harmonized with the priority rules of the provincial secured transactions regimes. PPSA legislation is used by lenders for the registration of the vast majority of secured interest in Canada, with the banks being the most frequent users. The banks are in a special position, however, in that they have section 427 Bank Act security available as backup should a problem arise with their PPSA security registration.

Section 427 Bank Act security is unfair because it provides banks with an extra form of security for their loans that is not available to any other lenders. In 2004, the Law Commission of Canada recommended that the Bank Act security provisions in the Bank Act should be repealed, and we agree with this recommendation. We were therefore pleased when the Senate banking committee suggested, and officials from the Department of Finance agreed during Senate committee hearings on this bill, to undertake discussions regarding the need to retain Bank Act security provisions in the Bank Act. We would urge this committee to give support to the need for such a study.

To conclude, Canadian Central thanks the committee for the opportunity to speak to you today about Bill S-5. We support the enactment of this legislation, but we also feel it should be followed up with a review that should lead to the eventual repeal of the Bank Act security provisions of the Bank Act.

We would be pleased to provide you with any additional information that you may require.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Phillips.

We'll hear from Mr. Melville now, please.

4:45 p.m.

Douglas Melville Ombudsman, Chief Executive Officer, Ombudsman for Banking Services and Investments

Thank you, Mr. Chair and finance committee members, for the kind invitation to appear before you today. We greatly appreciate the opportunity to speak with you about some of the issues facing Canadians at a critical time for the financial consumer protection framework of the country.

The discussions around Bill S-5 offer an opportunity to address an existing problem.

Before getting to that, I'd first like to offer my congratulations to you, Mr. Chair, for the personal emphasis that you've placed on financial literacy. The financial literacy of Canadians is something that's very near and dear to my heart and I'm sure to all members here as well, so congratulations to you on that.

For 16 years now, the Ombudsman for Banking Services and Investments has been offering consumers of financial services and products a national independent service for conflict resolution in the interest of finding fair and impartial solutions to their complaints. We are an important actor within the protection framework offered to Canadian consumers in the area of finance.

In fact, outside of the courts, OBSI is the only organization which provides financial compensation to consumers who have been wronged by their bank. We also play a role in the area of prevention, by allowing financial services firms to fix problems at a lesser cost, since we detect these before they head to court.

Further, OBSI can provide regulatory bodies with relevant information in their decision-making process. But now all of this is being put into doubt.

To give you a sense of the constituency we serve, 75% of OBSI complainants are 50 years of age or older, meaning they're at or approaching the end of their earning years. An outright majority, or 53%, of these people are seniors. For many of these individuals, the financial harm they suffer when a bank or investment firm makes a mistake is magnified by having fewer years to make up the losses and fewer income or job opportunities. Based on medical research, we also know that financial shocks late in life can actually shorten seniors' life spans, some estimates say by five years on average.

So 16 years ago, the banking sector first proposed an independent ombudsman as an alternative to the imminent imposition of a federal statutory agency to settle bank disputes. This was set up as a voluntary system, with appropriate safeguards for independence, which was permitted by government on the condition that all banks participate. In 2002, the aftermath of the collapse of technology stocks saw our mandate expanded to include the investment sector, where participation is currently mostly mandatory through self-regulatory agency rules. This is a point I'll come back to.

OBSI was not created as a simple private supplier contracted by each participating bank; we were created to have a much broader public interest and public policy function, balancing the needs of all stakeholders. It's a role we take very seriously.

It now seems that a vocal minority of banks have forgotten the genesis of this industry-created solution. Three years ago, the Royal Bank of Canada left OBSI for banking complaints at the height of the worldwide economic and market meltdown, when government and Parliament were rather busy dealing with bigger matters. TD followed this past October. Both banks now want the government or Parliament to lock in their own chosen private providers of dispute resolution to resolve complaints with their customers. It's difficult to see how this is anything but a giant step backward for consumer protection in Canada.

The immediate turmoil caused by TD's sudden recent departure is now behind us, but it has raised a fundamental question for parliamentarians and regulators to answer. Should banks be permitted to choose their own provider of dispute resolution, in essence to hire and pay for the organization that will judge and rule on their market conduct? I ask you this. If the banks were given the choice of being regulated by the Department of Finance, or some private for-profit body of their own choosing, whom do you think they would choose?

The independent investigation of consumer complaints cannot be credibly handled by a private for-profit supplier chosen and paid for by the bank. A service hired by the bank and that consequently has the bank as a client creates the perception, if not the reality, of a loss of that critical independence on which we function. The service will know whom it is they need to please in order to keep the business, and it's not the individual making the complaint. It's a clear conflict of interest.

We are firmly of the view that the dispute resolution process that consumers access needs to be credible, independent, impartial, and not beholden to any one stakeholder group. Allowing banks to choose a dispute resolution provider gives all the power to the financial institution and none to the consumer. Canadian consumer groups are unanimous in opposition to this, as are leading international organizations such as the World Bank.

To conclude, it is clear that the only system that can function in the public and consumer interest is one where OBSI is the sole approved dispute resolution service for banking consumers, and we would ask for your support in this regard.

Thank you very much. I would be very happy to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Mr. Melville.

We'll now go to Monsieur Vinet.

Mr. Vinet is from Montreal and he represents Option consommateurs.

You have five minutes to make your presentation.

4:50 p.m.

Jean-François Vinet Financial Service Analyst, Representation and Research Department, Option consommateurs

Thank you.

Do you hear me well?

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Yes, it is fine.

4:55 p.m.

Financial Service Analyst, Representation and Research Department, Option consommateurs

Jean-François Vinet

Perfect. I also hear you well.

Option consommateurs has a mandate to protect and promote Canadian consumer protection in Canada. Our association has been open for 25 years, and we are specialized in, among others, financial services, energy, and business practices.

Option consommateurs is highly preoccupied with what Mr. Douglas Melville mentioned earlier—that the banks not only choose but pay for the dispute resolution business that tries to resolve the complaints that consumers send against them. The lack of independence of such a structure, and the conflict of interest between banks and the business hired to resolve disputes against them by consumers, doesn't guarantee consumer protection in Canada and access to a neutral party.

We're asking the government to enforce that the OBSI become as it was three years ago, before TD quit. After that the Royal Bank quit the OBSI. We're asking the government that all financial institutions that are federally regulated be obligated to offer OBSI for complaint resolution by consumers.

That's our key message. We hope government will understand this, and that it is common sense.

Thank you.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much for your presentation.

We will begin members' questions with Mr. Julian.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I will share my time with Mr. Thibeault. I have the following question for all four witnesses.

Did you know that a review of the Financial Services Act had been planned? Were you able to make recommendations last fall, when the review was announced, at least on a website?

Mr. Phillips clearly explained what, in his view, should be added or changed with regard to Bill S-5, but I would like to ask the three other panellists to tell us what they see as being the shortcomings of the bill.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Melville.

4:55 p.m.

Ombudsman, Chief Executive Officer, Ombudsman for Banking Services and Investments

Douglas Melville

Thank you for the question, Mr. Julian.

From our perspective the legislation touches only peripherally on the mandate we currently perform for the system. With this hearing and the discussions around us five, we saw the opportunity to have the committee consider one of two options.

One was to look at modifying the Bank Act section 455, which talks about the requirement for participation in dispute resolution services for consumers. Right now what's proposed contemplates the possibility of multiple providers in that space. Our concern is that would lock in the possibility of RBC, TD, and potentially other banks being able to choose their own providers and undermining the fundamental independence that we see as being so critical in dispute resolution in the sector.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Thank you. I will have to interrupt you because we only have two minutes.

Mr. Vinet, please go ahead.

4:55 p.m.

Financial Service Analyst, Representation and Research Department, Option consommateurs

Jean-François Vinet

We are here to focus on one objective. Our main preoccupation is the complaint resolution process and maintaining the independence of this system. We're here on this bill. We are here to say that the banks should not be allowed to pick and choose which business they hire to supposedly resolve complaints that consumers send to them.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Thank you.

Mr. Sommers, did you know that the financial services legislation would be reviewed? Did you submit any recommendations?

5 p.m.

Coordinator, Canadian Community Reinvestment Coalition

Tyler Sommers

We typically participate and try to keep an eye on these sorts of things. We try to participate in it often. I only learned last week or the week before that this was ongoing.

As per your other question, I'll keep it very short. We agree that a federal ombudsman for banking services and investments should be used for conflict resolution. One of the other more important solutions we believe is using the pamphlet method to create oversight bodies that people can be invited to through banking mailings.

5 p.m.

NDP

Glenn Thibeault NDP Sudbury, ON

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

Mr. Melville, you talked a little bit about letting banks hire their own dispute resolution agency. Not that I want to put words into your mouth, but it sounds like we're asking the foxes to guard the chicken coop. Maybe you can explain the benefits of having an independent organization like yours arbitrate over consumer and small-business banking complaints.

5 p.m.

Ombudsman, Chief Executive Officer, Ombudsman for Banking Services and Investments

Douglas Melville

Fundamentally, if one looks at the court system in Canada, the average consumer complaint against a bank or financial service firm is very small. In banking, they're under $10,000. It's not economically viable to use the courts for the resolution of these complaints. It's for that reason that 16 years ago there was a sense that an alternative to the courts was needed.

With an independent body like ours, the value proposition is really four things. First, it helps the consumer to articulate a complaint, because often he doesn't know what's gone wrong. Second, it assists the consumer in investigating the problem, providing not just a review of the paper file but also an actual person who digs in and tries to understand what's gone wrong. Third, it provides for economic analysis of the losses incurred by the client. Fourth, it gives the consumer a power of enforcement, allowing him to work with the firm to see that compensation is paid without having to resort to the courts.

5 p.m.

NDP

Glenn Thibeault NDP Sudbury, ON

We have two banks leaving very quickly. What will happen if one more bank disappears, and how would that affect consumers and small businesses?

5 p.m.

Ombudsman, Chief Executive Officer, Ombudsman for Banking Services and Investments

Douglas Melville

I don't think we'll be viable if another bank goes, or if we end up with a multiple-provider environment. I think it's that simple.

5 p.m.

NDP

Glenn Thibeault NDP Sudbury, ON

Thank you.