Finance Committee on May 16th, 2012

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

The Department of Finance provided us with some information as part of this section of the budget implementation bill. There's a section on increasing transparency and accountability for charities. There are questions such as “What impact will the changes with respect to political activities have on charities?” There are actually some guidelines as to which activities are prohibited, which are charitable, and which are political. Under “prohibited”, it says:

Prohibited political activities are those that are partisan, (i.e., involving direct or indirect support or opposition for a political party or elected official)

If an organization that had a tax number had, for instance, on its website, “Building Canada's Conservative Movement”, and if in fact on its website it had a section called “What's Your Type?”—this is not one of those personal types of sites—and it said “Answer fifteen questions and see what type of conservative you are”, and if in fact it had a list called “What We Do” and in that list on this website it said “Conservative T-shirts”, and if it had a section called “Donate”—

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Point of order.

Mr. Chair, I know you have indicated that you would give great latitude. I certainly appreciate that. But I think Mr. Brison is getting into a level of detail that is far beyond the scope of this bill, certainly in terms of assessing individual organizations, which is the job of the experts who deal with this every day.

I would perhaps ask if you believe, under my point of order, that he's sort of exceeded that great latitude you have given us with regard to this conversation today.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Brison, do you want to respond before I...?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Certainly.

Thank you, Ms. McLeod.

I'm simply seeking clarification, because in the information provided to us from the Department of Finance, it lists activities that are prohibited, those that are charitable and as such are allowed, and those that are political and as such would have to be limited to 10% of a charity's....

I'm asking what kinds of activities would.... It's important, as legislators, that we understand this. This is from the Department of Finance. We were provided with this.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

The problem here, from my understanding of what Mr. McCauley said, is that he cannot comment on a specific organization that has charitable status. He—

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I'm not asking about a specific organization. I'm saying “what if”.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

May I finish my point, please, Mr. Brison?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

May I continue?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

No. I'm going to finish my point here.

He cannot comment on a specific case, and as he pointed out to you and to me, the rules apply equally to all charities.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I'm not asking him to comment on a specific case.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Do you mind if I finish my point?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you very much for that.

You can ask a question with respect to the Department of Finance measures. You can say, “If an organization does this, does it contravene...?”

He's already clarified the position on that, so I'm not sure what you're asking that he hasn't already answered.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Well, I wouldn't be asking the question if I already had the answer. I'm seeking an indication as to what kinds of activities are deemed “political activities” and as such a charity would have to limit to 10% of its overall operation. What would be considered prohibited?

It says here that any activities involving direct or indirect support for a political party would be considered prohibited.

I'm just saying “what if”. I'm not saying that something like this would exist. For God's sake, that would be crazy.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. McCauley, can you address those questions?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I have one more. I haven't run out of my time yet.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

No, the point of order did not take from your time. I'd just encourage you to ask your question in light of the comments I've made.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Sure. I appreciate that.

If in fact on the organization's website you pressed “donate” and it said “Yes, I want to help strengthen Canada's conservative movement”, would that be considered political or prohibited activities? I'm saying “what if”.

[Brian McCauley]

I was going to ask whether it's a small c or a capital C.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

On the T-shirt, you mean.

[Brian McCauley]

It certainly would be inappropriate for me to make a judgment in isolation without looking at the entirety of the facts—the circumstances and other things. If there were concrete questions with real scenarios, then we'd get the best experts to look at those, but I'm hesitant in the absence of looking at a full file.

We do run into circumstances where inadvertently there's a small piece that's off-line. Then you talk to a charity and they realize it and make a correction.

We do have lots of examples on our website of what's prohibited, and maybe we'll use some of these as well.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Sure. Part of the budget is increasing your resources to go after this type of activity. Will you be using these resources to potentially clamp down on these types of rogue activities?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Political activities are defined by the Department of Finance as those that involve an explicit call to political action, encourage the public to take action on a particular issue, or explicitly advocate to the public that a law, policy, or decision should be retained, opposed, or changed.

For instance, if you had an organization advocating for a reduction in the size of government, would you consider that to be a change in policy?

[Brian McCauley]

I think one has to remember that the purpose of the organization, in the first place, has to be charitable and that any political activity they might undertake would have to be subordinate or directly related to that. It very much depends upon what the charitable purpose of the organization is, because that, in a way, is critical to making an assessment of whether something would or would not be permitted.

That's why it's difficult. I'm not being evasive; it's difficult to answer the question.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

There have been some accusations that foreign money has supported groups and organizations in Canada to engage in political activities. Have you investigated...or would you consider, for instance, a donation by a U.S. oil company or individual to a Canadian organization that advocates reducing environmental policy, for instance, or an environmental regulatory framework to be an example of this kind of activity?