Finance Committee on May 28th, 2012

[Olivier Nicoloff]

It would be difficult for me, really, to speak on behalf of the director of Rights and Democracy, Mr. Gérard Latulippe. I know he wanted to focus more on the democracy mandates of the organization, as opposed to human rights, and also on taking Rights and Democracy more toward the role of an implementing agency as opposed to an agency that would give away money—as it was doing—for other organizations to run programs.

Those are some of the elements that he was describing about his intentions.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have 30 seconds.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

As the government directly, through ministerial authority, takes over some of this, is there a potential risk of seeing a more, if not partisan, certainly political agenda for the governments, in terms of the organization or organizations that take over from Rights and Democracy?

[Olivier Nicoloff]

I don't think it's for me to answer that question. We will obviously make recommendations to the minister, and the minister will take the decision, which we will be responsible for implementing.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

I'll go to Ms. Nash, please.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you.

Welcome to our committee.

As I understand it, the centre for rights and democracy has an international mandate to promote, advocate, and defend democratic and human rights as set out in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. That international declaration is, of course, very close to Canadians because the principal drafter, John Humphrey, was a Canadian. It has become something that we've been very proud of as Canadians, that we have played this role internationally as a promoter and defender of human rights and democracy.

Having served as an election observer, I know that Canadians are well respected around the world. We're proud to represent our country in promoting democracy, but also in promoting human rights, which are certainly not meeting up to the universal declaration in many countries around the world.

I have to say, first of all, that I find it distressing that over time, with government appointments to the board of Rights and Democracy, conflicts, frictions, and some degree of chaos, it seems, have come about under this government. From afar I have to say it looks as though the government's been attempting to control the work of Rights and Democracy as opposed to allowing it to be an advocate and promoter of human rights independent from the government.

What kind of reaction have you had, internationally and domestically, from those who work in the field of human rights and the promotion of democracy to the proposed closure?

[Olivier Nicoloff]

Thank you. I haven't personally heard very specific reaction. This is really very much a world in transition. It was known that Rights and Democracy had its share of problems. The minister made very specific reference to that and felt that it was really time now to move behind that.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Sorry to interrupt, but just because our time is short, didn't those problems begin, though, with appointees from this government? I hadn't heard of problems prior to that.

[Olivier Nicoloff]

Well, the difficulties with Rights and Democracy can certainly be associated with the relationship between the board of directors and the actual staff and management. To say there were no problems before I think would be.... There were also difficulties in the past. I mean, in any organization that you manage this way there are difficulties related to different issues. It could be accountability. It could be orientation—

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

But nothing out of the ordinary. Nothing that made the headlines as it seemed to do afterwards with some of the appointees.

But I guess more to the point is that I'm just wondering.... If you're here presenting this change, which is the closure of this centre, there must have been consultation with the communities and with other stakeholders who are involved in this work. So you've not heard of any reaction—

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have one minute.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

—to this closure?

[Olivier Nicoloff]

We have an ongoing relationship dialogue with this community, but more specifically on the programs that we manage directly. As I indicated at the beginning, we manage a $3 million program in support of democratic projects abroad. It's really the question of the tools and what are the best tools today for the government to conduct its work on its priorities for democracy and human rights support.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I just have time for one last quick question.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have 30 seconds.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Internationally, especially in areas of conflict, there is an advantage to being an independent organization or to be seen as an advocate, as distinct from a government organization. Rights and Democracy seemed to be able to navigate that difference internationally. Is there not a danger that this ability, this advantage, could be lost with the closure?

[Olivier Nicoloff]

Well, I would say again that we have many partners, and really, our challenge right now is to make recommendations and present options to the minister to make sure that he can implement his objectives in terms of democracy and human rights, with the partners and the tools that he has at his disposal.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Mr. Mai, you have the floor.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I share Ms. Nash's concerns about the closure of Rights and Democracy, which was in fact working well at the international level.

What are the official complaints you received about those problems? Could the government not have solved them before deciding simply to close Rights and Democracy?

[Olivier Nicoloff]

Thank you for the question, but I am not sure I have understood it properly.

As I said earlier, there were problems and tension over the last two years. The minister decided it was time to move past those problems and to shut down the organization as an efficiency and cost-saving measure.

When the minister took office, we met with him. Obviously we explained the various programs and partners through which those programs were implemented. The question that kept coming up in terms of promoting democracy was whether the tools available were the ones that were needed today, and it was underscored that those were the criteria that should be applied in making decisions.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I understand that aspect. The minister decided it was time to stop dealing with the problems, but could you give us more detail about the problems in question?

[Olivier Nicoloff]

I am not sure I have enough time to do that.

Essentially, there was a conflict between the board of directors and the former president of Rights and Democracy, Rémy Beauregard. That conflict related to certain directions taken and to management principles, in particular the way management and the organization were accountable to the board of directors. As we know, the conflict became quite public. In the media, the debate focused on some rather specific questions, for example whether or not certain projects should be supported. And then....

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

In what period, more or less, did those conflicts occur?

[Olivier Nicoloff]

It was about two years ago. So it was a little before I was assigned to this. I do not have the exact dates.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

So it was after the Conservative government came to power.

If I am not mistaken, there are about 82 people working there at present.