No, I don't have any discussions with Michael Ignatieff. My comments to you are based upon my own 20 years of experience in the business and the fact that if you are in it, you realize.... Actually, I'll give you an example. If you simply go back and look at the submission made by CSIS to Justice O'Connor in the Arar inquiry, you will see that they talk about the advantages to them of having credible oversight because they cannot speak for themselves. That is just the reality.
Former RCMP commissioner Zaccardelli, who resisted for years any expansion of any powers of review of their activities by the complaints body, came out in a speech to the International Police Association and said, I see the light. We need it. We cannot speak for ourselves. We're perceived to be self-serving.
I'm saying this as someone who spent years in the business. I'm saying I want that institution to be protected; I want that institution to have credibility. We need it, but it needs credible oversight. When you do this, you're harming the ability of CSIS to have credibility with the public when there's a problem.
In terms of democracy, Mr. Osbaldeston was called in, about 1986, when a mistake happened at CSIS and the first director, Ted Finn, had to resign, although they were calling for the resignation of the minister, Mr. Kelleher, at the time. He said that you have to realize that in a democracy your intelligence service will only be 85% successful. They asked him if it would be as good as BOSS, which was a South African intelligence service, or Mossad, and he said no, in a democracy it will be 85% effective, because if it's 100% effective you don't have a democracy.
It's important that it be there, but it has to be controlled. It's a sword: it protects us, but it's a dangerous sword. We need them, but we need them in a controlled fashion.