Evidence of meeting #66 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was immigration.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Patrick Grady  Economist, Global Economics Ltd., As an Individual
Richard Kurland  Policy Analyst and Attorney, As an Individual
Ian Lee  Professor, Sprott School of Business, University Carleton, As an Individual
Lorne Waldman  As an Individual
Roxanne Dubois  National Chairperson, Canadian Federation of Students
Mark Fried  Policy Coordinator, Oxfam Canada
Jim Stanford  Economist, Canadian Auto Workers Union
Diane Brisebois  President and Chief Executive Officer, Retail Council of Canada
Marjorie Griffin Cohen  Professor, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
Laurel Rothman  National Coordinator, Campaign 2000

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Marston.

Ms. McLeod, please.

10 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have first a couple of quick questions for Ms. Dubois. I have five minutes and about twenty questions that I hope to get in, so....

Are you aware of how long the BIA for 2011 was?

10 a.m.

National Chairperson, Canadian Federation of Students

Roxanne Dubois

I'm sorry, can you...?

10 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

The 2011 budget bill.

10 a.m.

National Chairperson, Canadian Federation of Students

Roxanne Dubois

The bill? No, I'm not.

10 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

It was 644 pages.

Do you know how long it was in 2010?

10 a.m.

National Chairperson, Canadian Federation of Students

10 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

It was 880 pages.

In 2009, it was 552.

These were also comprehensive bills that dealt with a number of different issues. So this is not extraordinary in terms of a budget bill. I think the opposition are just.... I believe this Parliament is very capable, like other parliaments, in terms of looking at 450 pages in a very comprehensive way.

I have three children. My youngest is graduating this year. With their work and with our help, of course, they are graduating without debt, and of course they're truly fortunate. I would have real trouble.... I believe that if support needs to go to universities...I would hate that support to have lowered the tuition for my children whom we would help. I would much rather see any support to universities going to those who can least afford it.

Would you agree with that?

10:05 a.m.

National Chairperson, Canadian Federation of Students

Roxanne Dubois

The federal government certainly has shifted the way it funds post-secondary education. It used to give funding directly to the system. Now it's providing a lot of money in loans. That's how we're shifting the way the education system is being paid for. Unfortunately, that has an unequal impact on students, because ultimately taking on debt—

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Can I quickly intercede? The government has given 3% more per year in the social service transfer, and we've also readjusted the student grant program for medium and low incomes. My basic point is I have to look at what Mr. Lee said in terms of what we're doing and where we're going, but rather than helping my children, I would say if we need to put more in, we need to be focused in terms of ensuring everyone has opportunity.

I need to move on.

Mr. Waldman, I think what your case elucidated was the need for a just-in-time system. Why should someone be waiting five or six years to come to Canada? The other thing I frequently hear, and you didn't mention, was the background of this particular applicant. If teachers come to Canada, they're going to be unemployed. In the meantime, in my riding I have calls probably once a week saying they need a doctor. Our rural community is desperate for this doctor.

The minister himself said he knew it was a very difficult decision. But to move toward a much fairer system for all and match the skills.... I have to perhaps agree with Mr. Kurland and Mr. Grady on this one. Again, I think your case elucidates it all. I'll leave it to both of you, Mr. Kurland and Mr. Waldman, to comment.

10:05 a.m.

As an Individual

Lorne Waldman

The problem with trying to improve the selection process.... As I said, I've been practising immigration law for 30 years, so I've been through a lot of governments of all different stripes telling me this is the one that's going to work. I understand the minister's idea about a just-in-time system. I hope it works. I have serious reservations about it, which I could discuss at another time.

My issue is a different one, though. My issue is simply that these people were told over many years. My view is it's immoral, it's wrong, for the government to tell these people now that they can't come.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

I've only got 30 seconds left, so Mr. Kurland can get equal time.

10:05 a.m.

Policy Analyst and Attorney, As an Individual

Richard Kurland

The mystery is.... First, 30 years ago, did we use Skype? Did we have IT like that? We have hard data that's now used to formulate policy—data capability that did not exist. When you crunch the numbers, it is perfectly clear that under the current selection system for skilled workers, our economic performance in Canada is superlative relative to the backlogged people. That's the hard data.

In terms of Canada being unpopular or adversely impacted in terms of dignity or reputation, I have not seen a drop-off in the intake of applications that come to this country. So where's the evidence?

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Ms. McLeod.

Mr. Brison, please.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Thank you very much to all of you for joining us this morning.

I want to start with the whole issue of immigration. I'll start with temporary foreign workers.

Recently I met with a number of industries, organizations, and businesses, ranging from manufacturers to seasonal work and farm organizations. The use of temporary foreign workers, I'm told, particularly in agriculture, is a global phenomenon. They are part of the production chain. I'm told by large operators in agriculture that any limitation on their access to temporary foreign workers will cost jobs for Canadians, because every temporary foreign worker, often in lower-end labour, creates, according to these business people, jobs further up the value chain for Canadian workers. If somebody is picking apples, later on there's a Canadian who's packing apples or making products with the apples or driving the truck.

What I'm hearing from the actual people in the business community is that temporary foreign workers are actually good for the Canadian economy and actually help create Canadian jobs.

I'd appreciate your views. Mr. Grady, I believe that your views are different from that. How do you respond to those business people?

10:10 a.m.

Economist, Global Economics Ltd., As an Individual

Patrick Grady

The agricultural program is a program that's been around for a long time. There are very small numbers of workers in the aggregate. They are largely seasonal workers who come in to pick crops. They come in on a regular basis from year to year and then they go home. The program, I guess, has been quite satisfactory from the point of view of the Canadian agricultural producers. Other people have had some problems with the way some of these workers have been treated. They've had issues with respect to what happens if there are disputes with the employer. It's a very perilous position to be a temporary agricultural worker.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

I agree with you.

10:10 a.m.

Economist, Global Economics Ltd., As an Individual

Patrick Grady

That was a program that had its own special issues.

What has happened, though, is that the government has expanded the temporary worker program by a quantum. They have applied it to a number of areas where you wouldn't think we would need temporary foreign workers, including areas such as the hospitality industry and services. Those are the types of areas where young Canadians get their first jobs, and you're bringing people in. It becomes easier to bring people in from abroad to fill temporary jobs in these industries than to maybe pay a little bit more and find young Canadians who are also new entrants into the labour force.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Even on the hospitality side, I've heard from large-scale operators, and they are actually quantifying that they are paying more for the foreign workers. So it is a fallacy to say that they are trying to save money. They're actually paying more for these temporary foreign workers, who in some cases have significant skills.

On the whole issue of immigration, I'm fascinated by the Manitoba model and the success of the Manitoba model. It is something federal governments of both stripes and provincial governments of different stripes have been involved in. I'm told that the Manitoba immigration model and the success and dynamism it has brought to the Manitoba economy helped Manitoba get through the downturn better than other provinces.

Manitoba's population is getting younger. I'm a little bit jealous of that, coming from Nova Scotia, where we not only are teetering on decline but are getting a lot older. I met with Jim Carr, of the Business Council of Manitoba, last week. They are incredibly supportive of the program. I've spoken to the Indo-Canadian business community and the Chinese community.

How can you counter the success story of this Manitoba miracle of immigration and the immigration of these new Canadians who represent natural bridges to the fastest growing economies in the world? You bring some pessimism about this.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Just give a brief response, please.

10:10 a.m.

Economist, Global Economics Ltd., As an Individual

Patrick Grady

I have concerns about the proliferation of these provincial nominee programs and how they've been functioning. The number of workers being brought in on these has gone up by maybe four or so over the last few years. The problem is that—

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

That obviously would not apply.

10:10 a.m.

Economist, Global Economics Ltd., As an Individual

Patrick Grady

What you're doing is reducing the share of the immigration intake being scrutinized under Canada-wide criteria to make sure that you're bringing the best people in. Provinces have their own priorities about who they bring in.

My understanding is that there are concerns in the department that in some of these provinces, the program is being used as a substitute for family class immigration.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Thank you very much.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Brison.

Mr. Van Kesteren, please.