Evidence of meeting #66 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was immigration.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
But what if you can't get people to pick, for instance, or to harvest? You can't get local people to do it. You will get them to pack the fruits and vegetables. You can get them to drive the trucks.
But what do you say to the employers who rely on those...?
11:40 a.m.
Economist, Canadian Auto Workers Union
Well, first of all, I would say that this kind of classic stereotype of the temporary foreign worker as someone who picks produce in a field is increasingly inaccurate. That's a small share, and a shrinking share, of the total number. You're seeing temporary foreign workers in retail, in food service, and in light manufacturing—throughout the economy. Perhaps in your riding, sir, it's more typical, but I don't think it's typical of the overall experience.
Secondly, the issue is, why won't Canadians do it? Is it a question of the compensation that's paid for doing a very difficult job? If you can bring in someone from Mexico who will do it, it may cost them $14 or $15 on the employer side, but that's not what they're being paid—
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
You mentioned Germany. Germany, in terms of training, apprenticeships, and maintaining the honour of the trades, it seems to me.... I'd appreciate your views on whether or not we could learn quite a bit from Germany in terms of human resource development.
Even in terms of things like income inequality, Germany does not have as much of a gap in terms of incomes as we do in Canada, for instance. Could you briefly opine on that? But briefly, because I have some other questions as well
11:40 a.m.
Economist, Canadian Auto Workers Union
I think we have a lot to learn from Germany in skills development, but also in a number of other areas.
Certainly, the integration between the college and skilled trades training programs, and the needs of employers and actual machinists and other very specialized trades, is more successful than it is here. That's also backed up with a very successful macro and industrial policy framework, which has first and more significantly enhanced global demand and the global success of German-made products, which is what created the jobs for those skilled workers in the first place.
So I think that across the board, both at the labour market level and at the macroeconomic and industrial strategy level, we could learn a lot from Germany.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Ms. Rothman, it is good to have you before committee again.
Forty per cent of the Canadians who are receiving OAS make less than $20,000 per year. Fifty-three per cent make less than $25,000. Will the changes to OAS potentially exacerbate the issue of income inequality and poverty in Canada?
11:40 a.m.
National Coordinator, Campaign 2000
Yes, from my understanding, certainly, I think we have to worry about a number of things, including what will happen to the 65- and 66-year-olds who, for whatever number of reasons, are not able to be in the labour force. In fact, some groups that I'm involved in have indeed recommended that the age for OAS and GIS go down, not up. In some industries, people are simply not able to work as a result of physical stress, etc.
I think the other major concern is what it does to the provinces in terms of low-income people who may have no resort other than to rely on social assistance, and of course that's something that provinces, as I understand it, have not been.... The discussion has not happened intergovernmentally, and that's a big issue for many budgets.
We would argue that what happens to seniors is important for all of us across the generations.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Ms. Rothman, I'm going to continue with you, if you don't mind.
A discussion we had here with a former panel—it was either Mr. Kurland or Mr. Grady...no, Mr. Lee, I think. It was interesting to hear this as well, because they didn't use their own opinion, but they quoted the OECD and the IMF, and a third.... At any rate, the quote and suggestion were that in the western world the current level and direction we're going in pensions is unsustainable. They didn't say it was just Canada; they said it was throughout the western world. We have to make changes.
I'm curious. You said you've heard sources that say we should lower.... Where are your sources when you suggest that we should be lowering? What group is making those?
11:45 a.m.
National Coordinator, Campaign 2000
I'm saying that. Among our partners, be they food banks, women's shelters, community service organizations, health care providers, housing providers, people we work with—and we look at the trend in terms of health, aging, and work. People are saying they think we should be going in the opposite direction. That's all.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON
I hear you. That's good. I don't think there are too many people who wouldn't agree we'd love to have retirement much lower, but I'm suggesting that those people in the field are telling us we can't sustain this. I wanted to make that clarification.
Mr. Stanford, I appreciate seeing you here again today. You were talking about...and I think those were great suggestions, but when we're looking to get businesses to start to spend that money they supposedly have in reserve—you thought possibly we should be encouraging them to do that—do you have some suggestions for the committee that we could bring forward?
11:45 a.m.
Economist, Canadian Auto Workers Union
In my judgment, what has not been effective in general in eliciting more investment spending by business has been across-the-board reductions in the general corporate income tax. Those are not tied to any incremental investment decision by the companies. I would be more supportive of something that was tied to an incremental decision to spend, such as an investment tax credit type of regime. I would also be supportive of partnerships between the private and public sectors in areas that are aimed at facilitating high-tech, value-adding investments, such as the auto partnerships in Mr. Watson's community and elsewhere.
It ties into Mr. Brison's earlier point as part of a broader framework to develop high-value, export-oriented industries. It's an idea that used to be called industrial policy. I think in the current framework it's more appropriately called sector development policy.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON
Has accelerated depreciation been a good program?
11:45 a.m.
Economist, Canadian Auto Workers Union
Accelerated depreciation is certainly better than an across-the-board corporate tax cut. You have to pay to play, in essence.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON
I appreciate that. Your suggestion is that corporate taxes...but you recognize we've had a number of economists who have a completely different and opposite position on that as well. They say if we raise the taxes, in essence we will be stagnating growth.
11:45 a.m.
Economist, Canadian Auto Workers Union
I've certainly heard those arguments, yes.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON
Thank you. Welcome to the witnesses.
I want to start correcting the record, because the federal government had asked for a study on our pension system. Edward Whitehouse, who researches pension policy on behalf of the OECD and the World Bank, concluded that Canada does not face major challenges in financial sustainability with its public pension schemes, and there is no pressing financial need to increase pension ages in the foreseeable future. Just so we're clear, if we're looking at data, those are the facts, and they are based on the OECD.
Mr. Stanford, can you tell us what your background is? Are you an economist?
11:45 a.m.
Economist, Canadian Auto Workers Union
Yes, I'm an economist. I was trained at the University of Calgary, where I studied at the same time in the same department as a certain prime minister. Then I received graduate degrees in England and America.
11:45 a.m.
Economist, Canadian Auto Workers Union
I have a PhD in economics from the New School for Social Research in New York City.
