Finance Committee on May 31st, 2012

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I meant the fastest-growing demographic is aboriginal youth. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

We'll take that as a helpful point.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

It's very helpful.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Is that to Mr. Jackson?

[Michael Jackson]

Let me respond this way. The cost saving of abolishing the right to a hearing in a post-suspension context is estimated by the parole board officials to be $1.6 million a year.

The impact on the unfair revocation of aboriginal offenders in terms of further contributing to disadvantage, lack of economic opportunity, and further years of incarceration is far, far greater than that, simply in economic terms.

But my point—and this is perhaps the reason why I opened my comments the way I did—is that the issues involved in this particular provision are not primarily economic. They affect fundamental human rights, and that is why this particular provision should be referred to the committee on justice and legal rights and the Senate committee on constitutional affairs. It is principally a human rights issue, a fundamental rights issue.

The economic impact, as I said, is $1.6 million. So it's tiny in the context of the overall budget of the Correctional Service of Canada and the parole board, but it is huge in its impact on aboriginal people.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Jackson.

Thank you, Ms. Nash.

We'll go to Mr. Van Kesteren, please.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I didn't think I was up yet, but okay.

I want to address my questions to Mr. Rainer and Mr. Turnbull.

I can appreciate some of the areas of concern you've raised, but the key ingredient you're leaving out—and we heard this very clearly this morning from a number of economists—is the simple fact that in order to sustain some of the things you're talking about, you need revenue. I don't have the figures with me. I suspect somebody on our side will possibly bring those up.

For instance, in the period of the great recession in 2008–09, when the government enacted its economic plan, there were substantial funds given to universities. Mr. Turk, I'm sure you know that. Traditionally, the federal government doesn't get involved with bricks and mortar, but we kind of broke the rule and spent millions of dollars. Again, I'm trusting somebody on this side will give you those figures.

The same could be said for health, as a matter of fact. The finance minister has said that we would be allocating an additional 6% to the provinces and that would continue to 2017. At that time, I believe it's tied to GDP and it will not drop below 3%. We expect that to be 4% at that time, so again, it's very substantial.

Coupled with that, we have a number of situations we're headed towards. Number one, we know we're headed towards an aging population. So when you talk about health care, we know that the majority of health care happens...somebody told me once that the last year of one's life is when.... As we see an aging population, we know we're going to be spending more and more money on health care.

The problem we're seeing is that as this intensifies, we're going to be needing more and more money.

I'm going to give Mr. Rainer a chance to respond, but the one thing that disturbed me was when you suggested—I can appreciate that everybody has an opinion, and that's great, but normally when we ask somebody to appear before us, we want them to give us expert advice. I'll give you this opportunity, but when you suggest that the government is mistaken in dealing with the issue of OAS and raising the age from 65 to 67, do you have statistical data that would enforce that?

The economist who appeared before us this morning, rather than giving his opinion, quoted what the OECD was stating. Not just Canada, but all western countries have overspent, and they have a real problem ahead and they need to address it. As a matter of fact, some of them have suggested that they raise it to age 70.

Do you have any statistics, or something to support that kind of statement, to suggest that we need to move that down instead of up?

[Rob Rainer]

I will get back to you with some firm specifics on that. I will just briefly say that the chief actuarial officer, as you may be aware, has already spoken on this issue to say that there is no crisis in the old age security, that it's adequately supported, and that it is sustainable in its current form. We can get you the reference on that.

I'm going to come back to Mr. Jackson's point: this is an example of an issue that isn't just monetary, or even a monetary issue. There are so many substantive things in this bill that have nothing really to do with the budget or the economy. They have a lot to do with fundamental issues of human rights or of social development, and so forth. This is the kind of issue that deserves a far fairer hearing than what it's been given to date. To package it into a massive omnibus bill is a big mistake.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peggy Nash]

Thirty seconds.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

I have some statistics; I won't share them.

I would say, then, that the best thing we can do for anybody who's living in poverty is give them a job. That is precisely what this bill is addressing, to make sure our economy remains strong and remains vibrant so that jobs are created. The best thing we can do to get them out of poverty is to give them a job. I think the government is doing what we promised, and, quite frankly, what people expected us to do.

[Rob Rainer]

A brief retort on that is that Canadians are working harder than ever before—we have evidence of that—and the ranks of the working poor are growing. You will find them in homeless shelters, and so forth. We have structural problems in our labour market, which also deserves far greater scrutiny.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peggy Nash]

Thank you very much, Mr. Van Kesteren, Mr. Rainer.

Mr. Caron.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you.

I would like to thank all the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Turnbull, I have had the pleasure in the past of working with members of the Canadian Medical Association, and the work done was in fact very productive. In a previous life, I worked more in the field of public policy, in the area of health care.

The federal government seems to have its perception when it comes to reducing its contributions. During the election, the federal government promised to preserve the 6% growth per year in transfers indefinitely. In December, it announced that it would be 6% for three years and 3% after that. That is actually a reduction from the commitment of about $31 billion. Their perception seems to be that they can grant this funding and thus control spending on health care and allow the provinces to do that as well.

From the perspective of the health care policy field, where I worked, it seems clear to me that this will not be a magic solution that will enable us to slow spending. On the contrary, it is going to force provinces to make painful and difficult choices about the services that are provided.

Could you comment on that subject?

[Dr. Jeffrey Turnbull]

Thank you very much.

The CMA has been very concerned about focusing all the discussion of sustainability on health care around just dollars. We believe this is not necessarily a discussion about just dollars. Sustainability, to us, is access to quality, patient-centred care across the continuum. Yes, it's provided in a cost-effective fashion. We believe strongly that if we just focus on the dollars, we're missing the opportunity of having significant health care transformation.

We need the federal government to work with us—providers, the provinces, the territories, municipalities—all together, to come to meaningful solutions. We can't do this without the federal government, and yes, the transfers are one part of this. But transfers without accountability, transfers without a change to the health care system, will just buy the status quo, which we already have and which we recognize is insufficient.

I can't think of anything worse than taking existing money out of an already struggling health care system that is having a great deal of difficulty providing services to ordinary Canadians, and especially those most vulnerable. So without transformative change—

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

What you're saying basically is that the federal government is missing a good chance to show leadership by being able to look at the problem from a very different perspective than a monetary one.

[Dr. Jeffrey Turnbull]

We need their help. They need to work with all of us. And for that amount of money, that $446 billion between now and 2023, I would think the public would expect that there would be accountability and change for that.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you.

I have about a minute and a half left.

Mr. Braun, one thing you said surprised me. Obviously, I have followed the Rights and Democracy tale from the outside, given that I was elected in 2011. If we go by what you have said, it seems that you and the other people appointed to the board of directors are the only ones in the entire tale who are blameless. I find that interesting. I have never heard you say that you created any problems or were part of any problems.

You talk about transparency and accountability. I know that you asked Deloitte & Touche to do an audit of Rights and Democracy relating to its structure and to decisions made during the period from 2005 to 2009. You spent $1 million dollars for a report that you sat on for five months, without disclosing it, when a request had been made for you to disclose it. Ultimately, that report did not show there to be any particular problems in the management of Rights and Democracy.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Please ask your question.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I find it astounding that you would justify your decision by citing a document that Mr. Beauregard cannot defend himself against, obviously, and that other people cannot defend themselves against, when the report you obtained did not contain any criticism of Mr. Beauregard's management. I am astounded.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

A brief response, Mr. Braun.

[Aurel Braun]

I appreciate the question.

I hope you read the Deloitte report, which did not cost $1 million. The report was actually devastating. I'm puzzled, as an academic, how you could read the report—I'd like to assume you read the report—and say this. The report basically stated that there was no accountability. The report stated that we have no way of tracing some of the money. The report stated, for example, that there was an internal audit report on the Geneva office that was negative, that was kept from the board. And then the late Mr. Beauregard commissioned another report that was submitted to the board, which was positive, but we were prevented from knowing about the negative report.

This was all in the Deloitte report. I do not know how it would be possible to read through that report and come to the conclusion you have, with the greatest respect, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay. Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Jean, please.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming today. I found it very interesting, indeed.

Mr. Jackson, after our last visit together at the committee for justice and human rights on Bill C-10, which was not that long ago—I enjoyed that thoroughly as well. I was hoping you'd come out on Bill C-38 and be very positive in relation to some of the measures we've taken in this particular bill. I'm basing that on your interest in aboriginal rights and aboriginals and freeing them from poverty.

I'd invite you up to Fort McMurray to take a look at what's going on there. We have 300 very successful aboriginal businesses in the area. Syncrude has a workforce of 1,200 people who are aboriginal—14% of the workforce. They have a pro-aboriginal hiring policy. So does Suncor, with 9% of their workforce being aboriginal, another 700 to 800 people.

To give you an example, one of the bands in the area, Fort McKay, has 600 members, and their businesses did $440 million in sales last year. The aboriginals in my area are doing very, very well.

They are going to do very well indeed under Bill C-38, because of course we have regulatory approval that has been fine-tuned. You don't have a one project, one review situation in Canada; you have 27 reviews and one project, usually, which take up to 8 to 14 years, and now we're looking at a two-year limit.

So I thought you would come out very positively about what this budget is going to mean to aboriginal Canadians, because of course most of these reviews will be in ridings and areas with 90% aboriginals.

Saying all of that, I appreciate all the work you have done. Of course, you are one of the most well-known prisoners' rights advocates in the country. Thank you for your comments today.

In relation to Mr. Turnbull, you mentioned that you thought health care should be an equivalent service to all Canadians and of equivalent quality?

[Dr. Jeffrey Turnbull]

Very much.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Do you agree that the federal government should treat all citizens the same in relation to health care across the country?