Finance Committee on Oct. 1st, 2012

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My opinion on this is very simple: the goal is to make sure that the person in this position has all of the abilities to make the relevant changes to the job description as the job description evolves.

When you look at the planning for financial literacy, the description we have today might be totally different from it would be five years from now or three years from now. For example, we're using BlackBerrys, so it's financial literacy when it comes to the case of utilizing a BlackBerry to pay bills or do your banking, or the educational information that will come across your BlackBerry.

There are so many other new technologies and structural changes in that sector that I think it would be a mistake to handcuff him at this point. I think the reality is that our goal here is to establish the position and give the person the mandate to do the job properly. Don't start putting roadblocks in his way so he can't do a proper job. That would be my logic here.

I'd say that this would be a bad precedent to set, because we don't go to our bureaucracy and put roadblocks in the way. We actually just tell them what the goal is, what we want to see as an outcome. We allow them to make the decisions to properly achieve those goals. I think we should do that in this case too.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Mr. Caron, go ahead.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Ms. Ryan, I listened to your answer. It has to be understood that the leader in question will have to work with a variety of stakeholders and partners, be they federal, provincial or other.

The fact that a common definition of financial literacy doesn't necessarily exist might complicate things. Wouldn't it be more beneficial to have a definition to work with, one that would make partners aware of the basic principles and terms of reference they will have to follow?

What's more, when it comes to defining the leader's role during those initial meetings, isn't there a risk that an excessive amount of time will be spent coming up with a common definition of financial literacy, in turn undermining the work that could be done?

[Eleanor Ryan]

I'm not sure that I can add much more to the approach we took in drafting the legislation, apart from the fact that the intention is to allow the meaning to have a sort of living approach: to allow it to constantly evolve, to change, and to shape, depending on the needs of Canadians.

To the extent that we add more guidance in the legislation, it is added in subsection 3(2) of the legislation, which indicates that an important role of the leader is to “collaborate and coordinate” with stakeholders, recognizing, as you indicated, that the job of the leader will be to bring others together, meaning stakeholders from provincial governments, from other federal departments, and from a range of other stakeholders. That was the additional signal we provided in the legislation about the role of a financial literacy leader.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay. We'll move to the vote on amendment NDP-1.

All in favour of NDP-1? All opposed?

(Amendment negatived)

Shall clause 2 carry?

(Clause 2 agreed to on division)

(On clause 3)

We will now move to clause 3. We have another amendment. We have NDP-2.

I'll again ask Mr. Thibeault to move that amendment.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

I'll move it.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Who would like to speak to it?

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

I'll speak to it, since I moved it.

What we're hoping to do is to solidify the mandate of the financial literacy leader; this ensures that they collaborate across the government's aim to create a position that works with stakeholders, rather than simply to add an additional layer of bureaucracy.

This was something we heard from our witnesses who were here last week. It's something they've talked about. It's the important thing for the financial literacy leader to do. Again, it provides guidelines and a framework for the financial literacy leader.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Thibeault.

Would you like to respond, Mr. Hoback?

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's rather redundant if you look at the existing authority under the FCAC in paragraph 3(2)(e) of the act, which states “foster, in co-operation with any department, agency or agent corporation of the Government of Canada or of a province, financial institutions and consumer and other organizations, an understanding of financial services and issues relating to financial services”.

Again, I think we've already given him broad guidance in what he should be doing and the role he should be serving. I don't think we need to add anything more to that at this point in time.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Is there any further discussion?

I will then call the question on NDP-2.

(Amendment negatived)

(Clause 3 carried on division)

(On clause 4)

We'll move to clause 4. I have no amendments for clause 4.

(Clause 4 carried on division)

(On clause 5)

We'll move to clause 5. I have two amendments: NDP-3 and NDP-4.

Do you have a question, Mr. Brison?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I have some questions for the witness on clause 5.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay, but I will deal with the amendments first.

Let's deal with NDP-3. I'll ask Mr. Thibeault to move that.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

I'll move that, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Would you like to speak to it?

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Sure. This amendment would ensure that the financial literacy leader is bilingual. It would ensure that Canadians across the country would have equal access to financial literacy. When he was here, the minister stated that the financial literacy leader would be bilingual, and we are simply trying to make sure that this happens. It is something the Conservatives also agreed with.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Thibeault.

Go ahead, Madam Glover.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Mr. Chair, I want to thank Mr. Thibeault for his interest in ensuring that linguistic duality and bilingualism in our country continue. That's a huge priority for this government. This is why we continue to put forward policies that support that. As an anglophone who learned French in French immersion, I can assure you this is something I take very seriously. That's why I'm very happy that Governor in Council appointments already have criteria that address this matter. Again this would be something that would not be necessary in the bill itself, but as I say, it is always appropriate for all of us to want to support bilingualism and the need for more bilingual leaders in our government and in our public service.

I want to comment that the FCAC commissioner herself is bilingual and did a very good job of expressing the position of the FCAC while she was here talking about this very bill.

Again, its redundancy is something I'm addressing. I would also say that in choosing a financial literacy leader, we do want to make sure there is merit that goes with any appointment and that the person has all of the other tools to make sure we have the best person in place to see this through.

I was quite concerned when our witnesses spoke about choosing the right person. They had some fears that if we don't choose the right person, this could, in fact, not go the way it's intended to go and might not benefit Canadians as it should.

Once again, I'm glad the Governor in Council appointments already contain some criteria for this. I'll leave it at that.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

We'll go to Monsieur Caron and then Monsieur Mai.

Go ahead, Monsieur Caron.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate everyone's comments. But the fact that the criteria are designated by the Governor in Council and the fact that they should be included in the bill are two different things. If the Governor in Council determines those criteria, they can be changed rather easily, whereas if they are set out in the legislation, Parliament has to agree to any changes.

Having the right person in the role of leader is key. As with other positions, having someone who knows French and English and has the ability to take into account linguistic differences among the institutions he or she will be working with is a crucial element, in my view. From what the Minister of State, Mr. Menzies, said during his presentation, he also considers this to be an important element. I understand what other witnesses have said. I find those comments helpful, in that the witnesses genuinely want to see the right person in this position.

And in my experience, the right person must also be someone who is able to work in both languages with the institutions directly, without needing an intermediary, and who is open to adapting potential policies and work methods to the differences between the two languages and the two cultures. In that regard, I think my colleague's amendment on bilingualism is crucial.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Very well. Thank you.

Go ahead, Monsieur Mai.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I absolutely support my colleague's motion on bilingualism. I am quite disappointed to hear that the Conservatives are not going to support an amendment that would safeguard this element in the bill.

Ms. Glover said there was some openness to the idea that it might be more important to give more weight to the person's skills and abilities. If we accept that position, we are to some extent accepting what has happened in the past. What we should do is learn from our mistakes. We've seen the appointment of an auditor general who speaks only one of the official languages and who doesn't understand the other. We've seen that mistake happen.

All this amendment does is really confirm what Ms. Glover was saying, in other words, that the government is committed to protecting official languages, which include French. All we are trying to do is make sure that's included in the bill.

We've seen what can actually happen, we've seen the problem. We've also seen this same government appoint unilingual judges to the Supreme Court. Not accepting this amendment just shows that the government is not committed to safeguarding official languages in Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay, thank you.

Is there any other discussion on this amendment?

Okay, I'll then call the question on NDP-3.

(Amendment negatived)

We'll then move to NDP-4.

Mr. Thibeault, would like you like to move and speak to that amendment?

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Of course I'd like to move this amendment.

This amendment is key, in our opinion, in relation to the financial literacy leader. It creates an advisory council as per recommendation 2 of the financial literacy task force. This ensures that the financial literacy leader is compelled to listen to a full range of stakeholders, a full range of the experts who are out there.

This again was mentioned by the witnesses who were here. They don't want this leader to not be able to coordinate. There is nothing out there right now that outlines that the financial literacy leader will do so; this amendment will ensure that the financial literacy leader, as I mentioned, is compelled to listen to the full range of stakeholders.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you for the discussion.

Go ahead, Mrs. Glover.