Finance Committee on Oct. 15th, 2012

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. McCaig, again, our friends in the NDP have called the oil sands and any jobs and investment related to them a disease. Do you concur with that?

[Kim McCaig]

I think you can see the value to the Canadian economy of the energy sector as it stands in Canada. I think it's one of the biggest reasons we've been able to build the infrastructure that exists in Canada today and what will help us to the future.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

So it's clearly not a disease, correct?

[Kim McCaig]

I don't see any disease in the oil sands.

In terms of energy production in general in Canada, one of the things that I have the strongest faith in—and again it goes back to an earlier comment I made—is that the regulatory system that's been set up in this country is one of the best in the world. How we do that, especially through the National Energy Board, has been an example for other jurisdictions on how we should make timely decisions.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. McCaig.

Chair, how much time do I have left?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peggy Nash]

You have 25 seconds.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Okay.

This question is to Ms. Pohlmann. Are trade agreements good or bad? Are they job creators or not?

[Corinne Pohlmann]

Our members support free trade agreements, yes.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peggy Nash]

Thank you, Mr. Adler.

You have five minutes, Mr. Giguère.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you.

I would also like to thank the witnesses for joining us today.

My question is for the representative from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business.

Gas prices have skyrocketed recently. With 42 billion litres being consumed in Canada, the annual increase for all consumers and businesses is $15 billion.

Could you tell us about the impact of this $15 billion increase that was authorized by the current government? It is not imaginary; it is real and it is current. What is the impact on energy costs for your businesses?

[Corinne Pohlmann]

As I mentioned already, in our monthly business barometer we ask about which costs to business are the most concerning to them. Fuel prices and fuel costs have been at the top of that list for the last several months.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you very much for your answer. It clearly shows us that you could have done without the $15-billion invoice.

In terms of the pension fund, I see that you are in favour of a defined-contribution plan. But our country's most significant pension plan, the Canada Pension Plan, is a defined-benefit pension plan and it is incredibly viable. It is the most viable of all the plans. Everyone agreed that the RCMP superannuation fund was viable. The federal public sector pension plan implemented in 2000 is incredibly viable.

All major defined-benefit pension plans are viable, whereas, oddly enough, those that go bankrupt, that are an embarrassment to us and that cut off the cheques of employees, are always defined-contribution plans. How do you explain that?

[Corinne Pohlmann]

I would disagree that the federal public sector pension plans are sustainable, given that there is an unfunded pension liability in the federal public sector pension plan of between $140 billion and $220 billion, depending on who you speak to and who is doing the analysis.

From our perspective it is actually not sustainable. We're not sure where that $140 billion—

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I am sorry, but you have just brought up an important figure. Are there any actuarial studies about that? The studies of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, the Parliamentary Budget Officer, the Chief Actuary and accounting firms that sign financial statements related to those pension funds say the opposite of what you are claiming.

[Corinne Pohlmann]

I believe the chief actuary of the Canadian pension plan has said there is a $140 billion unfunded liability in the public sector pension plan. I believe the C.D. Howe Institute has also done some research to show that the unfunded liability is in the order of $220 billion.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I am sorry, but did you say $140 billion in unfunded liability? If you have $140 billion in unfunded liability, how do you explain that the government has helped itself to a $25 billion surplus?

[Corinne Pohlmann]

That part I don't think I can answer. We do know there is an unfunded liability, and I am happy to provide you with the information we have from the chief actuary that states there is an unfunded liability in the federal public sector pension plan, which, we are worried, is eventually going to have to get paid as people in the public sector start retiring. We want to make sure that what's happening in other countries around the world—like Greece, or various states in the United States—doesn't happen in Canada.

We're not asking for anything to be taken away. We just want to make sure that folks in the future have a good retirement, but that so do other Canadians who also pay for part of that pension plan.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Let me take this opportunity to tell all Canadians that this pension plan, which she says is not made up of contributions, is included in the debt and that the interest is paid out of the government's current funds.

I have a question for Ms. Dawe. What is rather important—

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peggy Nash]

You have 30 seconds left to ask the question and get an answer.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Oh, okay.

If you group companies, do you also do it according to their corporate shield and their civil liability regarding unpaid debts, or do you keep them separate, even though you group them for tax purposes?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peggy Nash]

You have five seconds left.

[Bonnie Dawe]

I think the question is on bringing corporations together for tax consolidation purposes. If corporations can be looked at as one individual unit, and one corporation is paying its tax bill and contributing in that fashion towards the public and another corporation is not doing as well, and they come together, the health of those corporations will improve and there will be a corporation around to promote corporate sustainability in the future. If there's no corporation, it can't work towards corporate sustainability.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peggy Nash]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Giguère.

Ms. Smith, you have five minutes.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses for coming today. It's nice to have together such a knowledgeable group of people out of the financial sector.

In this country we've been very fortunate, because worldwide there's been an economic downturn. You mentioned Greece and other countries that are suffering. In this country, we have 770,000 new jobs, a AAA credit rating, and a very sound banking system.

That said, there are a lot of things our government is doing right. You're here today to also give us some extended ideas, because we like to collaborate. We like to talk about what will make things better.

I'll start with Mr. Unrau.

Mr. Unrau, as you know, we put $100 million into the food safety initiative, including $50 million specifically on the system itself and making it better. I know that the cattle industry has taken a hit with the incident that happened in this plant; do you think the measures put in place by our government now have been helpful to all plants, and, if so, how would you suggest something like this happened?

We've also hired 157 new inspectors, as you know.