Finance Committee on Oct. 18th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Ms. Nash.

We'll go to Ms. McLeod, please.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I do have to start off with a quick comment. I absolutely love the community health centre model. I actually was responsible for a number of the centres in British Columbia.

I know that within Quebec they have a very large, successful number. But as you were speaking, I kept hearing the Bloc say, still in my memory—I was on health care with them—to “Stay out of our business, stay out of our business, stay out of our business”.

Given the fact that you have so many representatives within your group from Quebec, and the fact that they now have a new government, do you actually have a mandate from all your partners in terms of your position?

[Scott Wolfe]

What I'd say is that, unfortunately, some of the reforms that were introduced in 2004-05 have posed some complications to that—

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Okay. Perhaps you could make it quick, because I did want to move on to someone else.

[Scott Wolfe]

Absolutely.

At one point in time, the CLSCs in Quebec had community autonomy, which meant that they were led by, directed by, the governments. That's changed since 2004-05. There are new intermediary bodies that work with CLSCs that we're in conversation with.

So the direct relationship is not where it needs to be and where we intend it to be.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

I have to go now to you, Mr. Conway. Perhaps it was the way you expressed it, but I think it was a little confusing when....

I've heard this rumour many times—in my role as parliamentary secretary for the Revenue Agency, I had to go out and check it—that the auditors get paid by the successful audits. You didn't mean that.

[Michael Conway]

I'm going to ask my colleague to provide you the details of the metric that is used.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Oh, it's the metric; I just wanted that point of clarification.

[Michael Conway]

There's a metric based on—

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Auditors don't get extra money for numbers of audits.

[Peter Effer, Vice-President, Taxation, Shoppers Drug Mart, Financial Executives International Canada]

No, they don't. It's just simply a metric.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Perfect. I appreciate that clarification, that it's really a metric that looks at where the time is expended and what the outcome is for that time.

Let's say you're looking at something that has medical expenses, and you find you're consuming a whole lot of resources pursuing medical expenses. This is a metric that sort of helps Canada Revenue Agency perhaps focus their resources sometimes in terms of high-risk areas, so I don't know that I'd want to get rid of that altogether.

I appreciate your comments that...you know, perhaps there's another metric that could be added.

[Michael Conway]

Just to explain the point, currently the metric is pointed at how many items they bring forward. The problem behind that metric is that if, let's say, they bring forward 100 issues and only 40 get actually assessed, and the government and the taxpayers spend a lot of time discussing the 60 that were without foundation, the 40 are the important things: those are the goals that the hockey players shot. And by rewarding the 60 that are just brought up.... I guess that's the point.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

In my relationship with the agency, I haven't found that metric to have consumed any time other than metrics that look at how we focus our resources.

Taking that to the next step, how would you see solving things at the audit level? Tell me how that might work, because I thought that was an intriguing thought.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have about 45 seconds for a brief response.

[Peter Effer]

What we're talking about is focusing on settling items rather than just reassessing them. Under the legislation and supported by the tax courts, the auditors don't have the authority to actually settle items with taxpayers based on a range of potential outcomes. It has to be a principle-based system. What we want is a situation where an auditor and a taxpayer could agree on a certain settlement that would prevent a non-significant issue from going to appeals, to the tax courts, using both government and taxpayer resources.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

You're saying within some parameters, obviously.

[Peter Effer]

Yes, absolutely. The CRA would establish, in consultation with industry, some parameters to determine what a settlement process would be.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Brison, please.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you.

In terms of community health centres' importance in rural ridings—for instance, the Hants Shore health clinic in my community—and their impact, particularly with an aging population in rural communities, in terms of the difficulty in maintaining and retaining doctors and nurses, these health clinics are critically important.

I'd like to start on the whole issue of training and learning, Mr. Knight, and this emergence of jobs without people and people without jobs, and that skills gap in Canada. It's not unique to Canada. I was at a Latin American conference last spring in Mexico. One of the ministers from Brazil was talking about the need to restore the honour of skilled trades. I thought to myself, well, that's something that really applies in Canada too. Somehow over the 20 or 30 years there seems to have been a diminution in the respect paid to skilled trades. Everyone is put on this track to universities, and in some cases community colleges, and there's been a trend away from the skills that we really need today.

If you look at what Germany has done, at the success of Germany, not only in terms of productivity but also in terms of such things as income inequality—there is less income inequality in Germany, and they have a productive and robust economy. Do we need a national learning strategy working with the provinces, not imposing on the provinces, but working with the provinces, to develop approaches?

You mentioned the interjurisdictional barriers. Is there a need for a national strategy, with a goal, among other things, of restoring the honour of skilled trades and building a national lifelong learning strategy?

[James Knight]

We believe there's a good opportunity here for the Government of Canada to show leadership. Provinces have jurisdiction, but there are many interjurisdictional barriers, as we mentioned.

We need a national vision. The national vision is to equip every Canadian with the skills they need to participate in the economy. There are a thousand ways we can approach this. There are a thousand opportunities. But we need a national vision, specifically to trades professions.

We use second-class language to describe the individuals who enter these professions. I do not use the words “skilled trades”. I talk about “trades professions”. I say that a plumber who makes $200,000 a year is as much a professional as an unemployed lawyer.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[James Knight]

We do not use the word “vocational” either. It's education. It's trades professions.

If we can upgrade our language from British class language—this is British class-based language, “Trades entrance at the rear”—I think we'll do a lot to improve the perception of these occupations.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Yes, and one of the things the federal government could do is actually launch a national campaign to change people's perceptions and thinking on this.

[James Knight]

Absolutely.