Finance Committee on Oct. 24th, 2012

[Steven Staples]

I'm here representing the Rideau Institute. I'm here on behalf of thousands of supporters out there who make regular monthly contributions to our organization.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

My point is that as a lobbyist, though, you work with NGOs, and you're looking for legislative changes as often as you may be looking for money.

[Steven Staples]

Oh, yes, we're almost always looking for policy or legislative changes.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I just wanted to make the point, because the implication was that we're talking about money here.

I also respect you for raising concerns about a military budget. In the times we've lived in for the last 15 or 20 years, people who do that are kind of questioned. But when you look at the graphs that we have here, you've shown us that during the last 15 years it has more than doubled. We've had terrible times, there's no doubt of that.

Do your graphs take into account the projected costs of the F-35?

[Steven Staples]

No, they are just up until the current point. I think that one in particular goes to 2011.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Yes, it does.

You've commented a little bit on the F-35. When you put it in the context of this change that has just happened, where they now have a procurement committee for oversight, which is great—it's important that we have that, as long as what they do is made public. What's your reaction to that?

[Steven Staples]

I think it was a recognition that things weren't going correctly. Remember, this program was announced two years ago, in 2010, with great fanfare, even though the plane itself was not proven. Imagine, they made that announcement two years ago, but this year the plane flew for the first time at night. That's how new that plane was. We now know it works in the dark. Also, this year it dropped its first bomb. So this is very much a model airplane that the government has committed to.

Now it has created this committee, which I think is a recognition that the track it was on was incorrect. However, as you know, there's been very little evidence that this committee is looking at other alternatives, and it is my understanding that that is what it was mandated to do.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Scholz, in your presentation you said your industry has 820 rigs. How many workers would that entail?

[Mark Scholz]

You have to look at the service. Are you talking about just in our industry on the drilling side?

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I mean directly in the industry.

[Mark Scholz]

On a crew, it would be about six individuals from our side that would be working on a single drilling rig. But then you also have to keep in mind that you're going to have pumpers, wireline operators, etc.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

There are the support industries.

[Mark Scholz]

The rule of thumb, we always say, is that for every rig that's working, it amounts to about 135 direct and indirect jobs.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

So it's a major, major industry.

I heard Mr. Dayler speaking about the need for educating first nations. We've heard from several witnesses that this is one of the stopgap measures we can use for the jobs in Mr. Jean's area that so desperately need filling.

Does your industry use temporary foreign workers to any degree?

[Mark Scholz]

It's very rare. We have some companies that have tried it. We look at this as a long-term career opportunity for people, and we would much rather train and nurture a Canadian, bring them up in the industry and work them up on the rigs, than we would ever see the need for temporary foreign workers.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I appreciate that because we have an awful lot of Canadians looking for work.

Would you support the government's giving assistance to unemployed Canadians to move to where the jobs are? We've heard that in the other presentations.

[Mark Scholz]

In fact, it was something I was asking for in my presentation. We would be extremely supportive of that. We have regions of our country where folks are unemployed, and we'd love to bring them out, train them up, and put them to work.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That would be a major investment for sure.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Marston.

Ms. McLeod.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Chair, and my thanks to all the witnesses for their presentations today.

Mr. Dayler, I think most people recognize the critical importance of education, particularly for the aboriginal community. It's interesting that you're asking for the lifting of the 2% cap. I had a meeting yesterday with some other folks in my office. I thought it was a very interesting concept, and I'd be very interested to know what you heard about it. There's some significant research out of the University of Victoria—and of course they are very well known for the work they do—that says it is more important right now to look at support versus funding. If you're looking at how you can help create success, there are some measures that would help increase the retention rate.

If you had only limited resources, which would be the better avenue? Are you aware of this particular study and what the implications of it are?

[Zachary Dayler]

I cannot comment directly on that study right now. In terms of support versus financing, you can't throw funding at an issue and not put the support there, whether it be on-the-ground support, actually on reserve, through a friendship centre, or wherever it may be, to help these young people get access to the appropriate information.

I mentioned earlier that we did a study, “The Illiteracy of the Literate”, that showed there's a good portion of misinformation out there about where to get even simple information about accessing. Once you have that, then the funds come into it.

This is 100% an issue in terms of first nations/Inuit populations for the PSSSP, to work with that community and with that group to identify what supports are needed, as well as what funding is there.

When we look at it in terms of what we can do to increase our overall productivity in our tax base, this is absolutely a population that needs both support and funding. So I'm not sure I can separate the two.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

They were talking...and it was a very, very poor retention rate, so I think to support success is a critical issue to be thinking of.

My next question is, how many students graduate without debt?

[Zachary Dayler]

The number varies. I've heard a number of things in terms of that.

It's hard to say how many without debt, because private debt is not counted—loans from parents and grandparents are not counted—when we're looking at that. In 30% to 40% of students graduating without debt, I would be surprised if they didn't have any debt, whether that be credit card or private debt.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Okay. If I look through—and I was doing that—we know that a number of students graduate without debt.

What percentage of the actual cost of education do students pay?

[Zachary Dayler]

What percentage do they actually pay in terms of their education?