Finance Committee on Oct. 25th, 2012

[Kenneth V. Georgetti]

I'm not aware of the CAW one. I'm aware of the one from British Columbia, because it was—

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Then why didn't you bring it up when you said there were absolutely no complaints, and no reason for us to do this? That's what I need. I need you to be honest.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay, let's have Mr. Georgetti respond.

[Kenneth V. Georgetti]

I resent the comment that I'm not honest. I'm truthful and honest all the time.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

I think we assume that all witnesses and all members are honest at this table.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I withdraw that. I didn't mean to suggest you were dishonest. I just want you to make sure you put everything on the table.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Let's have Mr. Georgetti respond.

[Kenneth V. Georgetti]

It was a long-drawn-out case in British Columbia that I'm aware of, involving a group of workers and their union. It went to the courts and was resolved. Yes, there are a lot of audits that have to go on. We have labour councils, and we conduct audits all the time to make sure that everything is above board and done properly.

From time to time, a few cases slip through the cracks. You mentioned two. I mentioned six. There are 4.5 million union members in Canada, and for the most part they have access to fine audited financial statements any time they want them. Once in a while there's an exception, but most of the time—I'd say 99.9% of the time—members get the information they want and deserve. Every member deserves to get financial accounting for their union dues.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Marston, please go ahead for your round.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's worth noting that those cases were resolved by the courts. They didn't need this bill to do that.

I signed my first union card in 1961, and I spent 22 years as a rank-and-file member of my union, first with the railway and then with the communication workers at Bell Canada. I attended every union meeting. Every month I saw and voted on the financial statements of two separate unions. Later on I was a delegate to our national convention, where I got to see and vote on every financial statement, which was audited. Then in about 1982, I was elected as an officer of my local, and I attended every single Canadian Labour Congress convention as a delegate until being elected here. I saw and voted on them.

I will point out something. Neither my employer nor the government had a vote on those, because it was the information of the membership. It was not of the union, but of the membership, because that's who the union is.

Mr. Blakely, your testimony today highlighted the fact that your competitors are the ones who want this bill, because it will give them an advantage over you. Would you like to explain that a little bit further? One point might be relative to the hiring hall. I mean, there is the separation between the two types of unions.

[Robert Blakely]

We're a hiring hall union. Hiring hall unions allow us to dispatch people to go to work for employers. To get on the hiring list, you need to be a member of the union. Our members are volunteers. For our pension plans and our training funds, we have about $600 million invested in training across the country, and we spend about $300 million a year training people. The bill will require us to disclose that information, and it will give our competitors, the merit shop, access to that information. They will know how much money we have, what we spend it on, what we do. It will give them access to an intelligence bonanza, bar none, to be able to compete with us.

We run the hiring hall; we run the pension plan; we run the training, with the assistance of our employer-partners. Our employer-partners bid against the merit shop. Why should they have to disclose what is essentially their trade and business confidentiality to their competitors? No other business has to do that.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

This bill clearly sideswipes employers as well as unions.

Mr. Georgetti, has a government department, either the CRA or the U.S. Department of Labor, ever approached you or your members, that you're aware of, on an issue of transparency?

[Kenneth V. Georgetti]

As I mentioned, no, not at all.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I want to give you the chance to fully respond, sir.

[Kenneth V. Georgetti]

As I said, to belong to our Canadian Labour Congress, our constitution requires that affiliates provide timely and open financial information to all their membership. Not only can they complain to the labour boards where there's a law—this law doesn't exist in Alberta and Saskatchewan—they can complain to the Canadian Labour Congress, and we can force our affiliates to disclose that information.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Sir, as you know, I was the president of the Hamilton and District Labour Council for 14 years—

[Kenneth V. Georgetti]

That's right.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

—and produced those statements to our members at every membership meeting. If I hadn't, your friends would undoubtedly have explained my obligation to me.

I'd like you to expand a little more, Mr. Georgetti, on the transparency that's already in place. You've talked about two provinces, but I understand six provinces have some requirements. Maybe I'm mistaken. Could you explain the compliance process they go through?

[Kenneth V. Georgetti]

It's also federal under the Canada Labour Code. Under the six provincial labour codes, unions must produce financial statements to their members on their demand. If they don't, they can complain directly to the labour board at no cost, and the labour relations board will conduct an investigation and write an order.

In 2010-2011, six orders were written by labour boards commanding that unions provide information on those members' requests.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have about 45 seconds.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I have 45 seconds.

I would love to go to the Bar Association, but I don't know whether I have time. In a short period, could you go into any detail on the constitutional problems with this?

[Michael Mazzuca]

You never ask a lawyer to go into detail and then say they have a short time.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I was thinking that.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have 30 seconds to do it.